I Succumbed to Temptation

[notCardio]

Here's the way it works. There are 128 channel memories, arranged in 32 banks of 4 channels.

Each of the 128 channels can have all of the following 4 available:
-- Amp model
-- Stomp effect (one from a selection of distortion, compressor, autowah)
-- Modulation effect (one from a selection of choruses, flangers, phasers, trems, etc)
-- Delay effect (one from a selection of analog and digital delay models)

All of the above are in addition to other global settings per channel for reverb, comp, gate, EQ, etc.

Each of the four assignable effects has an ON/OFF foot pedal.

There is also a foot switch for Bank+ and Bank- to switch between adjacent banks of four channels. When you have a Bank selected, you have immediate access to four channels, A - D.

So, let's assume that the amp model will be turned off, and that leaves the other three types of effects that can be assigned to the other three pedals.

So on Bank 1A, you could have, for example,
-- (amp model off)
-- Ibanez Tube Screamer for stomp effect
-- Analog chorus (modeled on Boss CE-1) for modulation effect
-- Tape delay (modeled on Roland RE-101 Space Echo) for delay effect

On Bank 1B, you could have:
-- (amp model off)
-- Arbitron Fuzz Face model for stomp effect
-- U-Vibe model for modulation effect
-- Straight-up digital delay for delay effect

And on Bank 1C, you could have:
-- (amp model off)
-- Ring modulator for stomp effect
-- Leslie rotary drum model for modulation effect
-- Reverse delay for delay effect

.....and so on, and so on.

As you can see, even though you only have access to three types of effects at once, you can easily switch between effects configurations.

That's what I thought.

I want to be able to use more than one mod at at time. I guess there's no need to rush out to buy one now.

That reminds me, I keep forgetting to try hooking up my POD and my Vamp together to see what kind of slush I can create...

Slap a couple 'o pedals on there, Belew will have nothin' on me!

 

[Zaphod B]

Hah! I knew it! Got a bite!

i dont use the boss digital delay, but it is true bypass. this means your main signal is intact (analog) while a split is taken off to produce the delay fx, then blended back with the pure analog signal. BIG difference. happy noodle making anyway...

The Boss delay is only true bypass when it's off, I believe. Even if you are correct, the wet part of the signal has still been "noodle-ized."

Oh, I also didn't mention that I also had an Alesis Microverb digital reverb in the signal path, which introduced more A/D/A signal into the front end of that amp. Guess what - it sounds great.

I think we're back to the old "they're all just tools, use 'em however you want to" argument. In my book, there is no reason to think that a tube amp cannot be used with anything other than an analog input. Many analog stomps introduce so much signal distortion of their own that it becomes a moot point. Unless you want to get into the vinyl vs. CD thing.

Anyhow, happy trails - it's all good.

And if I hook that Pod up to the Vox and it sounds like shit, I'll be sure to own up!

 

[Zaphod B]

That's what I thought.

I want to be able to use more than one mod at at time. I guess there's no need to rush out to buy one now.

That reminds me, I keep forgetting to try hooking up my POD and my Vamp together to see what kind of slush I can create...

Slap a couple 'o pedals on there, Belew will have nothin' on me!

There are actually 12 mod effects available for the "stomp" pedal, each with 8 discrete waveforms, so you could combine them with the ones on the "mod" pedal.

You can download the user's manual from Line 6 to check out how you can mix & match the effects.

 

[ggunn]

Hah! I knew it! Got a bite!

i dont use the boss digital delay, but it is true bypass. this means your main signal is intact (analog) while a split is taken off to produce the delay fx, then blended back with the pure analog signal. BIG difference. happy noodle making anyway...

Actually, that's not what true bypass means. True bypass means that your signal is shunted through without being touched by any other electronics when the effect is turned off. Any time you have a sidechain signal mixed into your straight signal, the two must go through a summing amplifier and is therefore not bypassed. True bypass effects shunt around the summing amp when the effect is turned off while those that aren't merely shut off the sidechain input to the summing amp.

But nevertheless, your point is a good one if in a POD your entire (straight and effected) signal is digitized and reassembled at the output, and there is no analog path through it. I don't know if that is the case, though I suspect that it is.

 

[Zaphod B]

all that being said, i really wonder what the guitar modelers would sound like with top notch AD/DA conversion. i have a feeling this is the biggest drawback to these systems anyway.

btw, i have the ac30cc as well. with a 2x12 ext. love it! my dream amp...

You know, I really think that the A/D/A conversion is not so much the problem anymore - but I can see that digital modeling of analog devices would be as much black art as anything.

The reason I say that about A/D/A converters is that high bit-width, accurate converters have been around for years, and they're cheap. I think the modeling technology is still not quite mature, though.

 

[Zaphod B]

But nevertheless, your point is a good one if in a POD your entire (straight and effected) signal is digitized and reassembled at the output, and there is no analog path through it. I don't know if that is the case, though I suspect that it is.

I suspect that, too. The documentation doesn't address it, and since the intended use is full-up emulation, there is likely no bypass.

Even if there were, as soon as you kicked in a single effect, you would be routing the whole signal through the DSP chain.

 

[notCardio]

There are actually 12 mod effects available for the "stomp" pedal, each with 8 discrete waveforms, so you could combine them with the ones on the "mod" pedal.

You can download the user's manual from Line 6 to check out how you can mix & match the effects.

OK, to put it simply, can you create a patch on the pc, download it to the pedal saved as 'bank1, #1' or whatever so that you can just hit a button and select it, that would allow you to use, say a flanger model and a phaser model at the same time? Or a flange and Univibe, or a phase and a chorus, or any other 2 mods AT THE SAME TIME?

 

[Zaphod B]

OK, to put it simply, can you create a patch on the pc, download it to the pedal saved as 'bank1, #1' or whatever so that you can just hit a button and select it, that would allow you to use, say a flanger model and a phaser model at the same time? Or a flange and Univibe, or a phase and a chorus, or any other 2 mods AT THE SAME TIME?

You wouldn't be able to use any of the two modulation effects at the same time - you could only use the ones available as "stomp" effects in conjunction with those available as "mod" effects.

And the ones you specifically mentioned are only available as "mod" effects, so you could not use them at the same time.

I think it all comes down to how much memory the thing has, as to how many models can be made available at any given time.

One thing that I don't know is whether there are additional effects packs available from Line 6 that would expand the flexibility a bit. Mine came preloaded with the "FX pack" but there are others available.

 

[Zaphod B]

Update:

I spent a couple of hours today with the Pod XTL and the Vox AC30CC.

On the Pod, I programmed a couple of channels with amp bypass and no amp model selected, made sure that EQ, compression, reverb, etc., were disabled, and configured some effects for the pedals. I tried my best to do an A/B comparison between the "dryest" signal available from the Pod running into the front-end input of the Vox, and my guitar as the only input.

The hardest part was getting an equivalent volume. The Pod has an overall output level on the back of the unit, and there is also a configurable channel volume for each channel. My main concerns with the output from the Pod were (1) not being able to determine an output unity level setting, and (2) knowing that any variation from the Pod that was above or below the guitar by itself would affect the drive into the preamp section and have a big impact on the resulting sound.

I think I got pretty close, though.

(Do you guys think I could measure the output of a guitar with a digital multimeter as VAC and do a comparison with the Pod?)

At any rate, when the output of the Pod is roughly equivalent to that of the guitar, the Pod doesn't seem to affect the tone in any way that I can hear with my admittedly damaged ears. I'm not going to claim that it can pass a guitar signal unadorned because I know it doesn't. But from my short, low-volume, in-the-bedroom experiment, the Pod doesn't seem to suck the tone out of the Telecaster, at least.

More to follow.

 

[metalj]

You know, I really think that the A/D/A conversion is not so much the problem anymore - but I can see that digital modeling of analog devices would be as much black art as anything.

The reason I say that about A/D/A converters is that high bit-width, accurate converters have been around for years, and they're cheap. I think the modeling technology is still not quite mature, though.

Do a comparison of just guitar - cord - input of amp, to guitar-cord-POD with everything shut off so its uneffected - input of amp.

Tell us if it sounds different. I bet the set up with the POD will suck in comparison to just a straight cord. At least that way you will know what your up against.

 

[TragikRemix]

ahhh nice friggin amp.

i want the AC15, the little bro for studio work myself.


digital modeling is no substitute for owning a sweet freakin amp, i dont care what anyone says. it's never the same. unless you are trying to recreate a low end ibanez through a cheap crate, then you can acieve that sound perfectly through modeling....

 

[Outlaws]

i dont use the boss digital delay, but it is true bypass. this means your main signal is intact (analog) while a split is taken off to produce the delay fx, then blended back with the pure analog signal. BIG difference. happy noodle making anyway...

No it is not. As far as I know Boss still doesn't make any true bypass pedals. True bypass means that there is 3PDT footswitch (unless there is no LED, but thats whole other bag of chips) and it completely removes the effect out of the signal path. Boss pedals use a buffer. Most pedals that are not true bypass have a DPDT footswitch, so they will either be tone sucking or have a buffer (which many with a buffer cannot be dicifered from true bypass by 99% of people who are trying to tell the difference).

And for the record, "this means your main signal is intact (analog) while a split is taken off to produce the delay fx, then blended back with the pure analog signal," is incorrect. A pedal without true bypass or a buffer doesn't "blend" anything. The DPDT switch is wired so the input is on one pole and it goes to both the effect and the "bypass" pole (which is not in use when 'on'). When on, it sends the signal to the effect and then back to the DPDT and out the output. When the effect is off the signal still goes into the effect and all the way to the end(hence tone sucking), but the DPDT switch disconnects the pole with the effect return and just uses the input to the output. There is no blending.

Here is a true bypass mod I did to a Big Muff I once had.
http://www.battletone.com/images/bm/index.htm
That 100% my mod. I did that just from opening up the pedal and saying, "okay, what needs to get snipped." You can also take note that the power plug has been replaced with an on/off switch. No more unplugging the guitar to save battery life, just flip a switch.
[edit]That link doesn't have the power switch.
Here is the switch.

 

[soundchaser59]

Darn it.... I thought this was a Vox AC30 thread....

And I'm pretty sure Outlaws is right, Boss pedals do NOT have true bypass. Very few pedals do.

 

[Zaphod B]

With my Matamp I runn three Boss stomp pedals - a DD3 (I think) distortion unit, a digital delay, and a chorus. I also run an Alesis Microverb digital reverb unit straight into the front end. The sound is very good.

It's kind of an academic argument. The only times you will hear the naked sound of a tube amp is in your bedroom or band practice room, or in a stage situation where the amps are not being mic'd. In any other situation the sound of the amp is being modified by some signal chain - either a PA or a recording setup - that can't help but affect the sound.

 

[Outlaws]

It's kind of an academic argument. The only times you will hear the naked sound of a tube amp is in your bedroom or band practice room, or in a stage situation where the amps are not being mic'd. In any other situation the sound of the amp is being modified by some signal chain - either a PA or a recording setup - that can't help but affect the sound.

True. Not to mention the terrible acoustics of 99.9% of bars. That little bit of signal loss or noise won't be noticed.

True bypass is most noticed in pedal chains that look like trains.

 

[ggunn]

Do a comparison of just guitar - cord - input of amp, to guitar-cord-POD with everything shut off so its uneffected - input of amp.

Tell us if it sounds different. I bet the set up with the POD will suck in comparison to just a straight cord. At least that way you will know what your up against.

That was my experience. I used to run a POD as a front end for my old Super Reverb, but then I bought a very cherry '64 BF Deluxe Reverb, which sounds very sweet just plugging directly into it. I initially just replaced the Super with the BFDR, but I suspected that the POD was affecting my tone in a detrimental way. I set up a true bypass using a couple of EH Switchblades, and I could not find a POD setting that was totally neutral.