I need songwriting help

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jndietz

The Way It Moves
I'm trying to write a radio-friendly tune. I have this guitar riff thought up and its killer -- but how do I write a catchy vocal hook for the chorus? Thats what I need right now -- a catchy vocal hook.

Thanks guys...looking to get some good tips.
 
Have you got any lyrics so far? If you have, maybe you can post them and that would give us something to work with.

Despite my aversion to cliches, they actually make good titles and good hooks. See if you can find a proverb or something that you can adapt to the song.
 
jndietz said:
I'm trying to write a radio-friendly tune. I have this guitar riff thought up and its killer -- but how do I write a catchy vocal hook for the chorus? Thats what I need right now -- a catchy vocal hook.

Thanks guys...looking to get some good tips.
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listen to the radio and see what kind of choruses catch your attention?..notice what caught your attention?..the melody?..a guitar lick?...

writing catchy is an art form that takes years of practice and a raw talent for it...
 
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What is....

....the song about? Do you have a story to tell? If you have a story then it is easier to develop a hook. Once you have a hook you can build a song around it while still telling the story. Kind of a circular reference thing, I know, but it does work after a fashion. Tell us your story.;)
 
All good advice about lyrics, but you could start with the melody first?

Does the riff it self suggest and melody or counter melody phrase?

What chords are you accompanying the riff with; does that suggest any melody to you?

The melody vs. lyric battle can rage, but no radio friendly song has been written without both being beautifully in synergy. So you might like to start with just humming along with the riff or the progression then find the words.
 
jndietz said:
I'm trying to write a radio-friendly tune. I have this guitar riff thought up and its killer -- but how do I write a catchy vocal hook for the chorus? Thats what I need right now -- a catchy vocal hook.

Thanks guys...looking to get some good tips.
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and why isnt your singer writing the lyrics?
 
Gidge said:
and why isnt your singer writing the lyrics?
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His lyrics cross into what I call "cheesyland" every once in a while. i guess we'll see how cheesy mine are when i finish this.


BTW: Its a 6/8 song... and the only chorus i have right now so far is

I hear voices inside my head (can be literally interpreted)
Echoing everything that you said (anything that a certain person said to you that stuck with you everywhere you went)
My mind wanders, the peace subsides (you then think back to how it was when you had that person around, then it rocks your core because you miss whatever it was because it is now gone)
I'm proud to say that you were my guide (you are then proud to have known the person and experience their time and knowledge because they provided you with great insight into life's conundrums and always was there for you in some way or another)

The song itself is about losing someone, whether literally through death or a destroyed friendship, and of course the lost love. but what remains after its all said and done is the lesson, whether it be a good lesson or bad one.
 
jndietz said:
His lyrics cross into what I call "cheesyland" every once in a while. i guess we'll see how cheesy mine are when i finish this.


BTW: Its a 6/8 song... and the only chorus i have right now so far is

I hear voices inside my head (can be literally interpreted)
Echoing everything that you said (anything that a certain person said to you that stuck with you everywhere you went)
My mind wanders, the peace subsides (you then think back to how it was when you had that person around, then it rocks your core because you miss whatever it was because it is now gone)
I'm proud to say that you were my guide (you are then proud to have known the person and experience their time and knowledge because they provided you with great insight into life's conundrums and always was there for you in some way or another).
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I like the first two lines of your chorus, whereas the second two are rambling in the scrub on the outskirts of 'Cheesyland'. Whether they venture into Cheesyland suburbs depends on how they sit with the music.

Saying that 'peace subsides' is a bit strange; it's not the kind of thing that peace does. Usually 'subside' is used when things settle, become smoother or calm down, e.g. 'his rage subsided'. In this case, the opposite is happening, peace is disturbed. You might need to search for another verb that suggests 'the peace has gone', or maybe continue with a further reference to 'mind', e.g. "my mind wanders, unsettled inside".

"I'm proud to say that you were my guide" sounds a bit twee, and maybe you could allude to this pride rather than being as direct, something along the lines of "drifting aimlessly without you as a guide".
 
Yes the last two lines need work

jndietz said:
My mind wanders, the peace subsides (you then think back to how it was when you had that person around, then it rocks your core because you miss whatever it was because it is now gone)
I'm proud to say that you were my guide (you are then proud to have known the person and experience their time and knowledge because they provided you with great insight into life's conundrums and always was there for you in some way or another)
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My mind drifts off to other times OR the more metaphorical I wander away to days gone by or anything similar that fits your meter without being rushed.

If you go with the metaphor it leaves you open to end with something like You filled my cup then drank it dry or any number of similar cliche's that are still cheesy.....but maybe a bit less cheesy.

jmho - Good luck with the song and keep us posted. Dave aka up-fiddler
 
When you say you're looking for a vocal hook, I interpret that to mean a catchy vocal melody.

I'm not a pro but whenever that is my goal I start by hammering out a chord progression that can easily support a melody and start singing gibberish (da dee da, lala lala, etc) just to craft a nice melody. Then, once I'm happy with the melody, I write words that nicely fit the meter and timing.

Usually by the time I'm at the lyrics stage, through the vocalizing/gibberish singing I already have a collection of vocal "sounds" that mesh well, so the trick becomes finding words that sound similar and reverse engineering some lyrics that say what I want to say. :)
 
mattdee1 said:
....I'm not a pro but whenever that is my goal I start by hammering out a chord progression that can easily support a melody and start singing gibberish (da dee da, lala lala, etc) just to craft a nice melody. Then, once I'm happy with the melody, I write words that nicely fit the meter and timing.

Usually by the time I'm at the lyrics stage, through the vocalizing/gibberish singing I already have a collection of vocal "sounds" that mesh well, so the trick becomes finding words that sound similar and reverse engineering some lyrics that say what I want to say. :)
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I read in an interview years ago that Paul Simon usually writes in this fashion also. I'd say that you are running in very good company.
 
up-fiddler said:
I read in an interview years ago that Paul Simon usually writes in this fashion also. I'd say that you are running in very good company.
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Cool!

This method, in my mind, just seems like the only way to go. But everybody works differently, I guess.

I must say, I can't understand the concept of writing lyrics before you have any melodic ideas. What are the odds that your poetry will just happen to "fit" with the kick ass chord progression you've just come up with? I would have to think that, inevitably, you'd have to molest the hell out of any pre-existing lyrics to make them work in all respects.

But, that's not to say it can't be done. I'm a HUGE Rush fan, and I know that Neil Peart writes all the lyrics as standalone entities, at least at first. Then, after the songs have been assembled, Geddy makes them fit with the compositions they have at the ready.
 
mattdee1 said:
Cool!

This method, in my mind, just seems like the only way to go. But everybody works differently, I guess.

I must say, I can't understand the concept of writing lyrics before you have any melodic ideas. What are the odds that your poetry will just happen to "fit" with the kick ass chord progression you've just come up with? I would have to think that, inevitably, you'd have to molest the hell out of any pre-existing lyrics to make them work in all respects.

But, that's not to say it can't be done. I'm a HUGE Rush fan, and I know that Neil Peart writes all the lyrics as standalone entities, at least at first. Then, after the songs have been assembled, Geddy makes them fit with the compositions they have at the ready.
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The next time we have a Challenge perhaps you might want to try writing the lyrics first and see how it works for you. We always like the company of another entry and the folks here are quick to help when you get stuck. Just a thought....
 
up-fiddler said:
The next time we have a Challenge perhaps you might want to try writing the lyrics first and see how it works for you. We always like the company of another entry and the folks here are quick to help when you get stuck. Just a thought....
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Noob question: what's a "challenge"?
 
up-fiddler said:
You can find rudimentary info here where the February Challenge was posted. Use the search function if you want to go back the last year and a half and see more examples but this should at least answer your question.
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Ok, I think I get the idea.

Sounds cool, I'll definitely try to participate if the nature of the challenge sounds like something I could attempt without embarrassing myself. :D
 
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