I need professional help . . . lutherie, psych . . .

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mshilarious

mshilarious

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I have an Epiphone Viola, short scale Hofner copy. Love the thing. Love it.

But now I really want/need a fretless, and really what I want is an electric upright.

The Viola has the right shape and tone, I even put it on my drum throne cranked all the way up, and it felt good.

Now, I don't want to screw up this instrument, but I noticed these things go for peanuts these days. Why is that? This bass totally kills the USA P-Bass I had in the '80s. Better tone, killer looks, nice growl. I've gigged and recorded with this thing for nearly 8 years (no gigs since I moved though :( ), it never lets me down.

Sooo . . .

I can buy a second one used to mash around, cheap. Not even $200. I could strip the frets and fill, but that doesn't seem very satisfactory. It would be great if I could pop off the fingerboard and replace with a string bass fingerboard, or at least a regular electric bass ebony board, but that looks really hard. I've removed a fingerboard from a mandolin before . . . that was easy :o

Cons: Short scale length. I could stretch it to 32" by swapping out the tailpiece for something shorter, and shimming up the bridge. Still way too short :(

I just can't think of any good options. I don't have much spread to spend on it, and all the EUBs I can buy are way too expensive, or ugly lookin' sticks :(
 
Wait a minute . . . what if I pull the frets, plane the neck flat (it's already flattish), then glue an ebony blank on top of that, and shape it to an upright-ish contour? That would even make the neck thicker, like an upright. Then I just have to cut a new nut and do something about the bridge & tailpiece, and get a set of upright strings . . . that might be crazy enough to work :confused:
 
I think I can picture what you're imagining here. I don't think the FB will have all that much to do with the upright sound you're looking for. why not just get a cheap beatle bass and pull and fill?

Heck why not just get a real DB? :)

I've had my old Kay for sale on and off for $800... :ninja: (talkbass.com smiley)
 
mshilarious said:
Wait a minute . . . what if I pull the frets, plane the neck flat (it's already flattish), then glue an ebony blank on top of that, and shape it to an upright-ish contour? That would even make the neck thicker, like an upright. Then I just have to cut a new nut and do something about the bridge & tailpiece, and get a set of upright strings . . . that might be crazy enough to work :confused:
Click to expand...

Also, the tension required for the upright strings will cause problems, as well as the downward force that will be created at the bridge when the strings run over it, breaking at a sharper angle. This might crack the top or just radically change the response of the wood... and god knows what else. Most double basses are from 39-42" in string length, so going to 32 would be so radically different as to probably not be worth trying.

The usual strings used on beatle basses are specially made ones with thin windings for the little tuning pegs. I think they're called labella beatle bass... http://www.juststrings.com/lab-760fhbb.html they also come in roundwound, but flat should be the way to go in your case.

But your basic idea, a FL Beatle Bass isn't a bad idea. Why not play around with this bass:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290197686974&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

Same idea- short scale, etc. $100....

Cheers, O-Wz
 
Unless you are going to be playing it in an upright position stick with a fairly flat radius on the fingerboard. Pulling the frets and filling is going to be your best option. Popping the fingerboard and replacing it is going to be problematic unless you have a good deal of confidence and skill. Increasing the string length is not really going to help you a lot as you can only get it a few inches longer and you'll not get much more tone out of it by doing so. A friend in one of the bands I play in has an original violin bass with the frets pulled and filled it plays and sounds great. Go that way first and see if you like the way it's heading before you start any other major modding. If you do decide to change the fingerboard get back to us and I'll give some pointers on the best way to do it and some things to watch out for. Think carefully about what you hope to acheive because I can't quite see how what you suggest is going to work, maybe I'm hust not reading it right.:)
 
Ooof . . . late night lutherie, definitely not a good idea . . .

Obi-Wan zenabI said:
I think I can picture what you're imagining here. I don't think the FB will have all that much to do with the upright sound you're looking for. why not just get a cheap beatle bass and pull and fill?
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This is a cheap beatle bass! Although I think it's nicer than the Rogues out there now. At least from pics, the Epi has much better fit & finish.

I'm not too concerned about upright sound, more the EUB look and feel. And I'd like a fretless. Although I love the buzz I get on with the frets, too.

Anyway, this bass already has a great acoustic sound. In fact while I've had it, I've never owned an amp, it doesn't need one for practice.

Heck why not just get a real DB? :)
Click to expand...

I'd love one, I used to rent one, but I don't really have the space :(

I've had my old Kay for sale on and off for $800... :ninja: (talkbass.com smiley)
Click to expand...

Shut UP! I remember when you were selling that months ago. I can't believe that isn't gone!

Also, the tension required for the upright strings will cause problems, as well as the downward force that will be created at the bridge when the strings run over it, breaking at a sharper angle. This might crack the top or just radically change the response of the wood... and god knows what else.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. Good point about strings. Although a short scale length lowers tension a lot (at the cost of floppy strings!). The Epi doesn't need special strings. In fact right now I've got pieces of a 5 string roundwound set on it, tuned CGDA. With the normal E string tuned on the short length to G, that pretty much fixes the short scale tone issue. But perhaps I will stick to electric flatwounds, they're cheaper anyway. Probably go back to regular tuning too, I like having the low notes, but I can't quite get used to tuning to fifths. Too old to learn new tricks, I guess :(

Unless you are going to be playing it in an upright position stick with a fairly flat radius on the fingerboard.
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That was the idea, to play it upright. What about my idea to plane down the board a bit rather than remove it, add an ebony blank on top, and contour that? With filled frets I'd still have to look at fretlines and inlays, I'd rather have a clean ebony look. I guess I could drill out the inlay and stain it black . . .

You also could look at the wishbass website.
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I've been looking at wishbass a long time, but I'd have to put almost as much work into one of those as the Epi . . .
 
mshilarious said:
Ooof . . . late night lutherie, definitely not a good idea . . .

That was the idea, to play it upright. What about my idea to plane down the board a bit rather than remove it, add an ebony blank on top, and contour that? With filled frets I'd still have to look at fretlines and inlays, I'd rather have a clean ebony look. I guess I could drill out the inlay and stain it black . . .
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I do loads of late night lutherie, sometimes there just isn't enough day to go round. Got this laptop in the workshop so it helps me form going completely insane.

Yes you could remove some of the fingerboard and laminate a new board on top. That would be cleaner and easier than popping the old board which does present some challenges. If you current board is ebony with care it would be invisible too. You can still do that after pulling and filling the frets as a test. Just a thought. I don't know if you've worked with ebony or rosewood before but be prepared for some horrid dust and stained hands. Keep the stuff off other projects you have lying around and clean up often.:)

I wouldn't worry too much about problems if you increase the break angle unless you go mad. I doubt the downward force would increase to a dangerous level. You'd need to think carefully about your bridge and set up if you do.

If your going to play it upright how do you intend to support it?
 
muttley600 said:
If you current board is ebony with care it would be invisible too.
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It's rosewood, but the neck stain closely matches the rosewood fingerboard.

If your going to play it upright how do you intend to support it?
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I'd need to bolt on an endpin. Obviously I can't have it recess into the body, so I'll have to have it semi-detachable.


OK, so let me understand you: I should pull frets, fill, slap on some flatwounds and give it a go? Then plane and add ebony if desired.

Do I fill the frets differently given that I'd expect it to be transitory? Cosmetics wouldn't be important. Do I even need to fill them at all to test out fretless?
 
Hmm, looking at Stew-Mac here:

I could get this blank:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bodies,...tar:_Fingerboards/Bass_Fingerboard_Blank.html

How well is the average hardware store planer gonna work on rosewood though :confused:

Uprights use a crazy radius, like 6" at the nut. I figure maybe 9 1/2" at the nut to 12" at the heel? Seems reasonable. I don't have any need to play arco. I tried the bow when I had the string bass, could never figure out how to steady the bass enough to bow it :confused:

I can bow a violin OK, not that anybody needs to hear me play violin :o

Stew-mac has radius sanding blocks:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Leveling/2/Fretboard_Radius-sanding_Blocks.html

So let's see . . . $36 for blank, $32 in sanding blocks, $50 or so for an endpin from Gollihur. I probably have a suitable nut blank somewhere, gotta check. I can use scrap from the fingerboard blank to shim up the bridge. Then a set of flats is $35. I have (de)fretting tools . . . what else am I forgetting :confused:
 
mshilarious said:
Hmm, looking at Stew-Mac here:

I could get this blank:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bodies,...tar:_Fingerboards/Bass_Fingerboard_Blank.html

How well is the average hardware store planer gonna work on rosewood though :confused:

Uprights use a crazy radius, like 6" at the nut. I figure maybe 9 1/2" at the nut to 12" at the heel? Seems reasonable. I don't have any need to play arco. I tried the bow when I had the string bass, could never figure out how to steady the bass enough to bow it :confused:

I can bow a violin OK, not that anybody needs to hear me play violin :o

Stew-mac has radius sanding blocks:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Leveling/2/Fretboard_Radius-sanding_Blocks.html

So let's see . . . $36 for blank, $32 in sanding blocks, $50 or so for an endpin from Gollihur. I probably have a suitable nut blank somewhere, gotta check. I can use scrap from the fingerboard blank to shim up the bridge. Then a set of flats is $35. I have (de)fretting tools . . . what else am I forgetting :confused:
Click to expand...
Fine except those are ebony and you want rosewood!!?? You can get them in Rosewood. If you have trouble PM me I'll put you in touch with some good suppliers in the US.

An overhand planer or any planer for that matter is only as good as it's blade and setup. Rosewood will find out any problems. Have you got a router I can give you some tips on how to thickness a board quickly and just as well if you have and you'll be less likely to get breakout and chattering. If you have a well set up planer you can take most of it off with that and then turn to a sharp block plane and scrapers. I would seriously think about removing what you want from the existing fingerboard with a sharp hand plane. Your asking for trouble with a power planer and you'll want to get it perfectly true before you add the new board.

I wouldn't use a compound radius on the new board. Stick to one radius. If your not going to be bowing it you don't need much radius anyway as bow clearance isn't an issue.

So, if your determined to go for it, you might want to get a decent shooting plane, a 5 1/2 would do it and a decent block plane. Some time and advice on sharpening them would also be good. Hope I'm not overstating here, if you have those skills you'll know what I'm on about. If you have a router it's not hard to make radius sanding blocks to any radius you want.

You'll also need some decent clamps or a bicycle inner tube for final glue up. good straight edge and when you come to each phase don't be shy about asking for tips. Can't think of anything else luthier specific other than setup stuff. I'm sure I will later..:D
 
I'd like to add that rosewood can cause a severe allergic reaction in some people. Your fingerboard is probably not a true rosewood (dalbergia sp.), But, just to be safe, wear breathing protection when working with it.
 
Yes rosewood can cause allergic reactions but you'd be very unlucky to be one of them. If you want to be safe it's the dust you'll want to avoid so as I said clean up often. The majority of rosewood used today for fingerboards and what you are likely to get hold of if you get it through a luthier supplies is Indian rosewood Dalbergia latifolia as opposed to Brazillian Rosewood Dalbergia nigra. Both are true rosewoods of the species sp. Dalbergia and family papilionaceae.

East Indian Rosewood is also sometimes sold as and called Sonokeling. The unscrupulous Indian timber trade will often try to pass off other timbers with the description Sonokeling which is where some confusion has arisen in the past.
 
muttley600 said:
Fine except those are ebony and you want rosewood!!?? You can get them in Rosewood. If you have trouble PM me I'll put you in touch with some good suppliers in the US.
Click to expand...

No, I have rosewood so I would plane that flat, then put ebony on top, and put the radius on that. I guess I'll stick with 9.5", isn't that P-Bass radius? If I did the math right, it would be about 1/16" off the edge. That doesn't sound too onerous.

An overhand planer or any planer for that matter is only as good as it's blade and setup. Rosewood will find out any problems. Have you got a router I can give you some tips on how to thickness a board quickly and just as well if you have and you'll be less likely to get breakout and chattering. If you have a well set up planer you can take most of it off with that and then turn to a sharp block plane and scrapers. I would seriously think about removing what you want from the existing fingerboard with a sharp hand plane. Your asking for trouble with a power planer and you'll want to get it perfectly true before you add the new board.
Click to expand...

I have a router but my router skills are limited to things like speaker building. I bought a trem for my Fender So-Cal but so far I've been too chicken to route it, even though I have router templates :o I don't mind at all using hand tools but if I can level it with the router without too much fuss . . . the biggest problem is the neck is set. It would be much easier if it was bolted so I could remove and clamp it down :(


You'll also need some decent clamps or a bicycle inner tube for final glue up. good straight edge and when you come to each phase don't be shy about asking for tips. Can't think of anything else luthier specific other than setup stuff. I'm sure I will later..:D
Click to expand...

I've got a few good clamps, plus a mess of bands from the ukelele kit (still haven't gotten to that either . . .) I have a straight edge . . . somewhere. I need to look around the workshop.

32-20 said:
Hey, Mshilarious, have a quick look at this. I've been considering building one for some time:
Click to expand...

Yikes. Hey, I could build the world's only combination EUB/potato cannon!
 
I'd go with rosewood as it's more appropriate and easier to work as well as being cheaper in most cases. It will do the job just as well.

How much off the edge will depend on the width of your f/b, obviously!! You'll want to thickness and radius the board before attaching it and taper it slightly over width by a few mm. That way you can use blind locating pins to stop slipping when you glue it up on your centre line. The final radius and shooting you can do when it's on the neck and you've done shooting the edge flush. Leave it over length at the nut and cut 2/3 through. you can then pin through the slot near each edge and locate it against the existing board at the nut line. When your gluing up and you'll know the nut is lined up right and you just have to cut through the last 1/3 of board and clean up.

You can make a simple jig to thickness the f/b I'll mock one up in my shop tomorrow and post a pic. I do quite a bit of thicknessing so I have a drum sander for mine. It shouldn't take you more than an hour to make the jig and thickness the board. It's less scary than you think and easier than routing cavities.

You will need to devise a good method for clamping the instrument securely while you work on the neck. There are quite a few ways a lot will depend on your bench and what you have available.
 
I think I'm going to set this aside for a while. I was played it today, and it has such a great fretted sound I'd hate to lose. Last night I thought, heck if these things aren't even worth $200 anymore, what's to lose. But I paid $600 for mine new some years ago, maybe the newer ones weren't as nice? Or maybe I got lucky and most were crap? Then I want a fretted bass and I buy a used one and it's crap :confused:

Maybe that eBay auction above is a better idea, I could buy a fretless bolt neck for that . . .
 
Hey Obi-Wan, I couldn't find your bass on talkbass . . . I can't afford it, just wanted to kick the tires . . .

You must help me, Obi-Wan . . . you are my last hope! ;)
 
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