I need help with putting sounds on the soundstage

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CyanJaguar

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Can you please explain to me how to push a sound back without drowning it in reverb. I have problems with my tracks sounding too close, and if I get them too sound far away, the reverb is usually too much.

I should tell you that I have not yet began to use delay. Is this a key? I messed with delay, but I dont know how to use it for good effect

thanks
 
Cut the midrange between 1khz and 3khz. This should help
 
also, you might want to play with different types of reverbs. If you're using a hall, it'll definately sound too reverby, maybe try a plate or experiment a little.
 
Before you start playing with Delay, Work with your volume on the direct sound and on the reverb as well.
The more direct the closer it is and so on....
You should always start with the volume first. Lowering any sound will push it back into the backround.
Adjusting your predelay will help as well. The more you have the larger the room sound. The larger the room sound the the more space it takes up in your mix.

If you choose to much reverb or a incorrect room type or setting you might mask your mix and make your reverb take up to much room.

Your reverb might need some eq to make it smaller as well or it might need to be panned to a different part
 
Rolling of some low end will also make a sound seem farther away, go outside and listen to the frequency balance of near sounds vs far away sounds a lot of the low end and some of the extreme highs get (apparently) attenuated faster than the upper mid frequencies as they get farther away. It probably corresponds to the Fletcher Munson curve.
 
Thanks for all the tips guys. I feel that I understand the concept, but putting it into practice seems almost impossible.

For example, adding lows and highs to a sound make it sound more upfront, but removing too much makes it sound thin and unuseable.

I usually have my predelay setting from 35 ms - 90 ms.

I need to work on the volume as Shailat suggested and work on the midrange as gargamel suggested.

Maybe this might clarify a bit. I usually put the plugin on a bus and set it to 100 % wet, then I send some of the material to taste. Will it be different if I just put the reverb on the track?
 
probably ....I'd try running it as an insert - it's easier to control the wet/dry mix (which you'll have to mess with anyway).
 
Actully vox its the opposite.

The more lows you hear compared to highs, the further the sound. To make the sound move back you must roll off the high end and not the low end.

High freqs have short waves and less energy and low is the opposite. This is one of the reason highs will not go through a wall were lows will.
When wave spreads in the atmosphere, you naturaly lose the highs. Therfore the futher we are from the source the less highs we hear and the more lows as the lows have the energy to push foward and to over come obsticals better.

Cyan,
Work on the following

* Volume - the first priority ! (close - loud far- soft)
* Dry / wet balance on your effect (dry - close wet -far)
* Rolling off highs (see above explnation)
* Delay (the more delayed - the farther away a sound is)

The high roll off is to be done carefully ! to much and your sound is dead and dull. A small roll off with some reverb and you'll get results.
But as I said first work on volume ! it is amazing what a lower volume will do to a sound in your mix. So simple yet effective.
 
Shailat,

thanks a bunch for that last post. It was very informative.

I need clarification on one thing though. You talked about delaying a sound. Does this mean having a delay effect on the sound or delaying the whole sound? I am off to try it right now.
 
Shailat said:
Actully vox its the opposite.

The more lows you hear compared to highs, the further the sound. To make the sound move back you must roll off the high end and not the low end.

High freqs have short waves and less energy and low is the opposite. This is one of the reason highs will not go through a wall were lows will.
When wave spreads in the atmosphere, you naturaly lose the highs. Therfore the futher we are from the source the less highs we hear and the more lows as the lows have the energy to push foward and to over come obsticals better.
Click to expand...

Ok, so basically what you are saying is that when you hear somebody shouting from 100 yds away all you will hear of their voice is the 60 hz content? ;)

What you said about low frequencies is correct but the sound has to have significant amounts of low frequency power to start with.

Try a simple experiment, put a boom box at one end of a room and play a cd at moderate volume, walk slowly away from it and listen to how that sound changes, first you lose the extreme highs, then the low bass, eventually all you hear is the mids.

Shailat, you are Da Man, but I think I got you on this one :D
 
vox said:


Ok, so basically what you are saying is that when you hear somebody shouting from 100 yds away all you will hear of their voice is the 60 hz content? ;)
Click to expand...


I didnt say anything about 60Hz.... A shouter will add harmonics due to his shouting and change the freq content by doing so.
Therfore the low content will not be the only factor.


What you said about low frequencies is correct but the sound has to have significant amounts of low frequency power to start with.

Try a simple experiment, put a boom box at one end of a room and play a cd at moderate volume, walk slowly away from it and listen to how that sound changes, first you lose the extreme highs, then the low bass, eventually all you hear is the mids.
Click to expand...

I know all about Fletcher Munson.....
How we preceive volume is a combination of several things.
From Volume to waveform and of course....Fletcher.
Above..... what you wrote, means you agree with me that the first to be lost are the highs. and as I wrote the first priority is lowering the volume which relates to the fletcher theory as well.
As to the waveform - A airplane and a flute both at the same volume, the flute will not sound louder yet WILL sound lower in volume due to the waveform.

When you want to make a sound move back, No EQ change will move it back drasticly. Even worse....you will probably hurt the sound rolling off highs as a means to move it back.
It is meant to be used as a combination with other moves like reverb, Delay.....
Eq cuts alone will tend to make your sound lower and higher rather then move back.
To adjust Eq so that you have a mid range sound by rolling off highs and lows will leave you with a sound you hear even more
a 800-5k sound will Project foward. Humans are sensetive to mid range freq's. You would have to lower the volume as well.



Shailat, you are Da Man, but I think I got you on this one :D
Click to expand...

I dont think so.....;)
 
Shailat said:
Actully vox its the opposite.

The more lows you hear compared to highs, the further the sound. To make the sound move back you must roll off the high end and not the low end.

High freqs have short waves and less energy and low is the opposite. This is one of the reason highs will not go through a wall were lows will.
When wave spreads in the atmosphere, you naturaly lose the highs. Therfore the futher we are from the source the less highs we hear and the more lows as the lows have the energy to push foward and to over come obsticals better.
Click to expand...
Shailat,

You're describing the right phenomenon, but for the wrong reasons.

Actually the energy in a sound wave is proportional A^2 * f^2 (amplitude squared times frequency squared). For a given amplitude (height of the wave) high frequencies have MORE energy in them than low frequencies. Of course, in normal music amplitude decreases with increasing frequency so the energy density over the spectrum is fairly flat (usually it drops off at both extreme highs and lows).

High frequencies do attenuate in the atmosphere, but it's a function of the physical mechanism by which sound travels in the air rather than the amount energy in those particular frequencies.

For the human voice, both the lows and highs tend to drop off with distance. The highs drop off due the high frequency absorption in the air Shailat already mentioned. Outdoors the low frequencies also drop off due to a change in bass loading. When you are speaking to someone face-to-face you are in the relative near field of their voice. Bass is fairly strong in the region. If they step back a few feet, however, the omni directional characteristic of the bass in their voice takes over resulting in sharp -6dB offset in addition to the normal drop associated with just the extra distance (the bass radiation moves from quarter space to half space).

barefoot
 
Well, here is a simple trick that sometimes works for me, but might not always apply. At recording time, if you know the track is to be back in the soundstage, put the microphone really far away from what it's recording. You need total silence in the room to do this, and the sound might not always be what you are looking for, but it does work.
 
"... if you know the track is to be back in the soundstage, put the microphone really far away from what it's recording. You need total silence in the room to do this, and the sound might not always be what you are looking for, but it does work."

This is similar to what a Lexicon guy said about 'distance': Puting the early reflections on it sets it back. This is not quite the same as using verb with a lot of pre-delay where the intent is to put the sound in a backdrop, but not connect it to the early reflections and reverb. There, you are front row, but the room is background.
Oops, did that make sense?
 
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