I need expert microphone help!!!!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kevin Allen
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I've used a lot of mics over the years, and still use several almost every Sunday running sound at church. No offense here, but I suggested re-checking the singer because I simply cannot make sense out of what you are saying. It is absolutely confounding that you can take different mics and pass them around to several different singers and all the mics dutifully pick up every singer......except one. It is mind boggling that you can set up one good mic and put several different singers in front of it and it picks up just fine for all of them......except one. My semi-amateur sound man brain and experiences cannot reconcile that kind of statement. Ocham's Razor would imply that the easiest explanation points to the singer, not the mics.
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Good point.
The song is probably just the wrong key for the singer.
I'd change one or the other.

Hey Soundchaser:
Do you know what your Avatar is?
 
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Richard Monroe. you nailed it. FINALLY someone who knows something and understands what i'm trying to say. she sounds normal, like a female. she does have some lower "sounding" notes, but the overtones are high frequencies that the mics just DO NOT pick up. in other words, most mics are picking up "part" of her vocal, and cutting her off when she hits the lower frequencies, and also the higher frequencies.

let me get this straight for yall, she IS BEING AMPLIFIED. any man can walk to the mic and blow the windows out of a building the way the mic is set, but wouldnt yall also say that QSC2450 power amp SHOULD be getting a female vocalist ABOVE a set of acoustic drums played lightly in a practice room setting????????????????????????????

like i said, i've dealt with this for some times and talked to mic techs from all over. all say the same thing, when the mic cuts off frequencies in its curve, u CANNOT EQ them back. if the frequency is low, u can EQ it up some, but basically, if its not sensitive to it, its NOT there.

thank you richard monroe, i'll check out the mics you suggested.

and changing song key? is she suppose to scream her songs? she finds the key she sings her songs "NATURALLY"
 
I obviously am not understanding the problem you describe.

Are you telling us that her voice is most dominant in the 18k to 20k range, and also the 30 to 160 range?

Wow, what a voice!

18K to 20K? Come on guys...most small club PA's can't even reproduce that range anyway. Why are we talking him into buying mics for it?
 
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First, I agree that 20K is *not* the problem, unless she is performing for an audience of dogs. Most people can't even hear that, so the fact that it shows up on an oscilliscope is only an interesting piece of trivia. It's also not about where the voice is dominant, because everybody's dominant frequencies are in some general band of the audio spectrum. The issue is 2-fold. One that you can only fix with the mic, and the other, which you can only fix with the mix, whether it's a front-of-house live mix, or a recording mix. Some vocalists produce very strong overtones that are quite distant from the dominant frequency, and that can be an essential part of the vocalist's total audible sound. In some cases the overtones are more important than the dominant frequency, and it can be essential in making the lyrics intelligible.

Secondly, sometimes the vocalist is competing for a given frequency band, either with another vocalist, guitar, piano, or whatever. Even some drums tuned a certain way can compete with a vocalist for a specific frequency band. This may require the use of EQ to attenuate certain common frequencies, which has the effect of pulling the two sources apart, so they have their own space to live in in the audio spectrum. In that sense, less is sometimes more. My advice to the OP was to start by selecting a mic that is very good at reproducing high end detail. Hell, the Beatles were known to sometimes use Neumann KM84's as vocal mics. I bet you could hear the OP's vocalist just fine through one of those babies.

Overtones, along with diction, is what makes every vocalist unique, and it's why there isn't one perfect vocal mic for everybody. I have some of the same problem as that lady vocalist, and it's why I can't use an SM58 as a stage mic, although it's a perfectly good mic. I use a Shure SM7b with the presence boost engaged. That's just me. It won't work for most of you (you will really, really, want to turn that presence boost *off*). Who knows, it might work for her. I stand by my original suggestion that a KMS105 or a D3800 will help a lot.-Richie
 
Sounds like something else funky is going on. Phase cancellation with the monitors or something? If your setup is kind of funky, you might try positioning yourself like everyone else does. Reversing the phase on something. Maybe your mic (or cable) is wired weird.

As far as mics. AT4033 sounds like it'd suit her. Although probably not a tight enough polar pattern for live.

As far as Hz? 4k-16k would be more likely. Most headphones don't even do 20k+
 
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i think most of you are over analyzing this situation. Richard Monroe is right about everything, i just need a mic that works.

the system we are using is NOT the problem, we have the equipment to BLAST, but we are not, i'm talking breaking it down simple even down to a small head, a mic, and a singer, no monitors. ANYONE can walk to the mic and it blast, NOT her.

hook up a bunch of rack stuff and power amps, everything gets louder, NOT her. its not the polar pickup pattern either, the mics are doing their job as far as no feedback, i mean when u have the gain knobs/sliders as far as they will go, u cant do no more other than add a power amp to get even louder. thats what i mean by blasting. but, she is still not there.

again, we are doing traditional country, easy music, nothing hard core. all i'm trying to do, is boost HER vocal above a set of un-mic'ed acoustic drums, is that so hard? shouldnt be, and with the power we got, the other vocalist, male, has his mic barely turned on. and he uses the shure beta 58, which SUCKS for her, just a muffled mess, a little more amplification but still not above acoustic drums, and not understandable.

so again, there's nothing wrong with the equipment, theres nothing wrong with the settings, there is nothing wrong with her singing, she's a GREAT singer. the only thing is finding a mic to specifically work for her.
 
Kevin if you really feel it's the mic, then the best thing is to try different ones.

I have a hard time with SM58's but my Sennheiser 441 works for me. That is the flattest dynamic I know of and a very, very clear sounding mic.

Please understand that I, and judging from the other posts here, others here have never heard of a mic that wouldn't put out sound for a singer. I've heard of unideal mics, but ones that were silent or close to it for one singer and not another is for me a first, that's all, and it does seem very peculiar.

I wish you were here, I'd lend you a 441 because if that didn't work I'd be pretty surprised.
 
This is pretty interesting. I have a good friend (male singer) that has a hole' in the articulation range, sounds muffled on a 58. Literally it has made me wonder what the heck is going on at some gigs- as in 'what the hell is wrong with his mic and why don't the sound guy fix it', only to have someone else walk up to the same mic and sound clear and bright.
But I agree with others- if that's what's up, why the heck would you be boosting 30-160 and 18K? :confused:

I had really decent tone on this guy with a PR22 -a light on the low end mic relatively, plus a healthy bump in the upper mids- basically contouring is still needed. I've also heard him done 'right on other mics at times (58sm or b ? comes to mind) so..
Whether all this eq plays well in the monitors is another can of worms.

On the 'picks up background more? That's sig-to-noise no getting around it.
 
Okay, I agree that every singer should be matched up with "the best choice" mic that agrees with their voice. Choosing the right mic is like shopping for shoes...sooner or later you will find one that fits nicely.

I was just baffled by your approach. Pushing up the 30Hz slider on a small PA will saturate the power amp, cause unheard distortion, increase driver heat and blow the bass speakers. Pushing up the 20K will have a similar distortion effect on the horns. If I ever saw a FOH engineer do that to one of my PA's I would fire him on the spot.

Can we hear a recording of this voice? We may be able to figure out which frequencies need attention and then chose a mic based on frequency response charts. There are many mics out there designed for different voice types.
 
And for my additional $.02, the mic mentioned by Dinty Moore- Sennheiser MD441, would also probably work. I agree with the folks who say that pushing extreme high end EQ will not help, and will likely make matters worse. What I think is needed is a mic that simply produces excellent high end detail, and the MD441 would also be an excellent solution. Boosting frequencies at the extreme end of the audio spectrum, or even beyond it, is *not* the answer.-Richie
 
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ok, 2 things, just to respond to on guys post, the mic is not "silent" when shes in it, it IS picking her up. but you gotta understand, its NOT picking her up to the extent of boosting her volume above a set of un-mic'ed acoustic drums played lightly.

second, i'm smart enough to know NOT to boost some of these frequencies like i have. BUT, when ur out of options, u flat line everything and start over. so far, boosting these frequencies is the ONLY thing that has even helped. normally on most vocalists/instruments, like mentioned, boosting these frequencies will distort and muffle and just be awful.

i've been looking at the mics all have mentioned, and they for the most part all have one thing in common, they dont all drop off on the extreme lows and extreme highs.

and yesterday at practice, the drummer got a set of drum mics so we can record. and out of curiosity after reading the frequency curves on the papers, i plugged up the drum mics for her. the tom mics did pretty good, the snare mic was almost better than the sennheiser mic we are currently using for vocals. i'm not ruling out any options.

would love to try mics, but having to ask, there is no music stores in my area that carry different lines of mics. just one or 2 lines, usually a cheaper line and shure58.

but thank yall so much for replying to this post. its give me more ideas and several mic options to check out. and someone said she had to be a vampire, well, i asked her, took her out in the sun, threatened her with a wood stake, and held up a cross at her and she didnt flinch so i guess she's not a vampire LOLOLOL j/k
 
vijsolo said:
This is for sure not so easy to tell a lot without hearing.

Maybe you should take a look at this one

ElectroVoice ND767A NDYM Super Cardioid Lead Vocal Microphone
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yep .... a great mic.

But the real problem is her voice and there's no way around it if everyone else walks up and gets good volume out of the same settings. It simply has to be that she sings very soft regardless of how well she sings. And there's no vocal down at 30hz and there's no vocals at 18khz. Turning up those freqs is simply adding to the feedback problem.
She must have a very weak output in which case you'll always have problems with it live. I can't stand working with that kind of singer because it's always hard to get them loud enough.
And also perhaps her mic technique. If she sings that soft, then she needs to sing right on top of the mic. Her lips should actually touch the mic a tiny bit if she's singing close enough.

The EV mic is fairly resistant to feedback. I've been using one for years for just that reason plus it has a wide freq range unlike an SM58.
Good luck with this ...... it's probably gonna always be a pain in the butt to deal with.
 
Kevin Allen said:
its not the singer. alot of the "club band musicians" say to modulate till shes singing hard enough to be picked up. she's not quiet. a singer shouldnt have to SCREAM into a mic. its traditional country, not screaming rock. she sings naturally, there has to be mics made to pick up natural vocals.

now, technique, sure, singers need it, but thats for when a mic is actually picking you up, u cant technique silence.
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she HAS to be singing quiet. It's not physically possible for a vocal to be some sort of 'special voice' that mics can't pick up. The laws of physics are just that ....... laws.
If she's not being picked up by mics that are loud for everyone else then she's singing too quietly or too far from the mic or both ........ period.
That's the only two possibilities if she's the only one that doesn't get picked up by a mic that's loud for all other voices.
 
Richard Monroe said:
And for my additional $.02, the mic mentioned by Dinty Moore- Sennheiser MD441, would also probably work. I agree with the folks who say that pushing extreme high end EQ will not help, and will likely make matters worse. What I think is needed is a mic that simply produces excellent high end detail, and the MD441 would also be an excellent solution.
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While acknowledging we're all more or less guessing and being general here, and no you can't 'eq something that isn't 'there' all these mics represent the frequencies needed. A mic can dial in on the fine points but live sound, live sound (for the most part) = damage control. :) Not a huge diff. if it’s the mic that bumps 'there' or an eq'. Anywho, this sounds to me like the kind of stuff that is way more out of whack at the source than the differences between mic curves.

Boosting frequencies at the extreme end of the audio spectrum, or even beyond it, is *not* the answer.-Richie
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Just curious, are you recording these tracks? If so, is there a lack of presence in the recorded tracks? Just trying to figure out if it's your PA system or something. All woofer, no tweeter. Recalling a few studio sessions with a jazz band where the in recording room monitors lacked everything trombone. (low mids). Leaving me to play louder and "test" the mic to see if it was even on. No love in the headsets in studio either. But it's on the CD. To include a ruined session where I ended up playing too loud trying to compensate for my lack of perceived recorded sound. Due to monitoring issues.

Perhaps, it's her. Shes singing to soft. Singing to far from the mic. Or something else. You might try giving her a big hat or something to help block/filter that drumset. Some symphonies are using plexiglass reflectors now to isolate some sounds from others mics.

One other thought based on some EQ experiments of my own. Using EQ, especially on the lower Hz's can actually amp up percussive sounds, in a bad way. And make the situation that you've described worse. From my own experience with ensembles in front of large stone buildings (state captial) that tends to amp percussive sounds, which might otherwise be more subdued in a mix. I'm not saying that it's not her, but you can control some of the other elements better to help her out. Is the backdrop concrete? Perhaps stacking some cases and jackets back there might alter the acoustic environment.
 
Just for the record, I understand what everybody is saying about the physical laws of the universe, and furthermore, I haven't disagreed with a single post here. The only difference between me and everybody else above is that I have experienced the problem the original poster is trying to describe, personally. No- she's not silent, and I bet that track level indicators will show that she is producing a perfectly strong signal. The problem is- she can't be heard in spite of this, so she is *perceived* as producing almost no signal, which is damned annoying. You can *see* her, but you can't *hear* her. I think it's not about the frequency curve of the mic, or any other piece of equipment, and EQ won't fix it. It's about the *detail* that the mic captures (or not) in specific frequency bands, which in her case, are overtones produced in narrow and unusual frequency bands.

She needs to be reinforced or recorded with a mic that you would usually use for a piano, or a flute, or a mandolin, not a drum mic. AKG C2000B would work, or Oktava MC012, or lots of stuff, but with a pencil mic like the Oktava, feedback could be a major problem. The best solutions I have found for this issue is either to use a good handheld condenser mic, such as Neumann KMS105, AKG C535, Shure SM82 (a really weird one), or to use a very high quality dynamic that isn't a large diaphragm. In other words, probably not SM7 or RE20, but MD441, AKG D3800, or possibly an EV N/D767. The EV mic I've never used, but it seems to have the qualities I think she needs.

Kevin- check your PM's. I sent you one and offered to ship you my D3800 to audition. It's one of the least expensive options on the list. Good luck. I feel your pain.-Richie
 
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