I need a smart engineer to answer a few questions!

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hellofellow!

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Hi! I'm new to recording and I just have a couple of questions.
so here's my first
I have noticed when listening to music in my headphones some sound can sound like they are really close (almost in my ears it seems like) and some sounds sound far away. Even if it is the exact same sound and the exact same volume one sound can sound extremely close nd the other far. I have messed with reducing around the 200 level but can't make the effect because the high frequencies sound close too! I thought that this was cause by the use of bass frequency only but then listened to "prettiest girls" by pharrell and noticed the bass did sound in my ears- it sounded far away- it was weird because I thought bass was supposed to sound close up.

another question- which mics are good for recording distant sound and making them sound distant- condenser- large/ small diaphragm or a dynamic like a sm57m

another question- I was recording in the studio using an sm57 on acoustic guitar- the room is sound-proofed well. Since the studio has a digital external mixer I set the knob at the top of the mixer at about 7/8 of the the way to the right- this would increase some loudness(what is this know called) I also set the fader at -5dbs. Things were.going fine until Iturnup the fader and noticed a lot of shhhhhhhh hsssssss from the mix- not the guitar. Does anybody think they might know where this came from

another question! How do I record stereo?

thanks for reading this!!!
 
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Headphones are not stereo, they are binaural. Loudspeakers function very differently, so it's quite usual for perspective to change in headphones - often very slight differences make big differences. If you experiment with 6 different sounds (maybe using a sequencer) and on speakers pan them sequentially from left to right, with the third one dead centre, as each one appears, you can point to them with your eyes closed. If you add small amounts of reverberation, and experiment with adjusting the first delay time, and volume, you can make them move back and forwards. When you do the same thing in headphones, each ear only hears the left or right. Without headphones, your right ear hears the left speaker, just a bit lower in level, just a bit more 'muffled' because your head is in the way, and a tiny bit later, because the sound travelled further. A mix in the headphones that sounds great often falls apart on speakers, and vice versa. Older recordings often had quite radical pan settings - so in earphones you'd perhaps notice there was no sax at all, but on the speakers, the sax just sounds firmly left or right - but not 'wrong'. Have a Google for the Haas effect - some quite interesting stuff there.

Every record producer has their own idea about what is 'correct'. Bass might well be better dry, and to the front, but listen to nearly all jazz recording from the 40s and 50s and you are stretched to hear it.

As for recording distant sounds - generally distant sounds are quieter, so a decent condenser is probably first choice. An SM57 is really designed for loud sounds, so when used on quiet ones, you need plenty of gain - and this could be fine with great preamps, or a horrible hissy mess! Dynamic mics on distant sounds often sound quite dull - because distant high frequencies have trouble moving the heavier diaphragms that dynamics have.

However, if you want a sound source to 'sound' distant, doesn't mean actually recording it that way - EQ, delay and reverb applied carefully can do it. Good practice is to record a single sound source up close, and from a distance at the same time. Normalise both tracks to the same level, and then compare them. You then have a chance to attempt to replicate the sound of distance. Your brain listens to both ears, and produces the right answer.

Your hiss problem is perfectly normal. Digital desks still use analogue pre-amps, and the gain knob on a mixer sets the correct input level - so loud sounds don't distort - using the maximum available dynamic range - the channel fader just controls how much we hear/record. Hiss is normal. Too high a gain setting that needs the channel fader almost off is very nasty, but if your ⅞ gain setting means the channel fader is at it's normalise position, then the mic is too far away, or too low an output. Like I said, SM57s are not best for quiet sound sources.
 
hellofellow! said:
Hi! I'm new to recording and I just have a couple of questions.
so here's my first
I have noticed when listening to music in my headphones some sound can sound like they are really close (almost in my ears it seems like) and some sounds sound far away. Even if it is the exact same sound and the exact same volume one sound can sound extremely close nd the other far. I have messed with reducing around the 200 level but can't make the effect because the high frequencies sound close too! I thought that this was cause by the use of bass frequency only but then listened to "prettiest girls" by pharrell and noticed the bass did sound in my ears- it sounded far away- it was weird because I thought bass was supposed to sound close up.
Click to expand...

In addition to what Rob pointed out, you're dealing with how the ear/brain complex perceives spatial information or, rather, perceives an auditory object in space. This is actually what we're manipulating when we create a stereo recording; we're tricking the ear into perceiving space that wasn't necessarily there. We do this, of course, using mic technique and processing.

However, I would disagree that headphones are not stereo. Headphones are, strictly speaking, dual transducer headsets that deliver discrete feeds to each ear (lol). In the simplest of sense for the masses, yes, they are stereo. I would also argue that it is not necessarily the nature of headphones to be deemed "stereo" or "binaural" because they can deliver those kinds of experiences PLUS mono, depending on the material. Therefore, I would say that it depends on the listening material.

Going back to what you were asking...the ear/brain uses frequency and arrival time at each ear to decipher where an auditory object is in space. That is why we use panning, delay, reverb and EQ to create the impression of a sound being either close, far away or on either side of the head. Binaural recordings go a step further to introduce a 360 degree sound field. Normal music recording and mixing seldom involves binaural material (because can only be experienced on headphones although I know Michael Wagener sometimes uses a Neumann KU-100 binaural head for room mics) so we are left to manipulate objects in the sound field with the aforementioned processing tools. For instance, because we know that bass frequencies travel further than high frequencies, the top end will be rolled off on sounds far away. For an instruments at the back of a big hall being heard from the front, there will also be a bit of early reflections. The resulting sound will have the high frequencies rolled off a little. So if you have a recording of say, a flute, and you send it to a hall reverb, you can push the send until the sound is awash, roll of the tops a little, add some pre-delay and you would have effectively tricked the ear into hearing a sound "far away". Once we actually understand the physics of acoustics and hearing, we can begin to emulate those experiences in the recording and mixing domains.


hellofellow! said:
another question- which mics are good for recording distant sound and making them sound distant- condenser- large/ small diaphragm or a dynamic like a sm57m
Click to expand...

It is not the mic that makes a sound sound distant, it is how far away you place it. It is as simple as that. Good room mics include Coles 4038s, Neumann u87s, SM7B, or any large condenser will do.

hellofellow! said:
another question- I was recording in the studio using an sm57 on acoustic guitar- the room is sound-proofed well. Since the studio has a digital external mixer I set the know at the top of the mixer at about 7/8 of the the way to the right- this would increase some loudness(what is this know called) I also set the fader at -5dbs. Things were.going fine until Iturnup the fader and noticed a lot of shhhhhhhh hsssssss from the mix- not the guitar. Does anybody think they might know where this came from
Click to expand...

The hiss is almost certainly coming from the preamp on the digital mixer since you are turning it up quite a ways. Nothing you can do about that, unfortunately, until you get a mic with a higher output.

hellofellow! said:
another question! How do I record stereo?

thanks for reading this!!!
Click to expand...

Stereo Microphone Techniques Explained, Part 1

Stereo Microphone Techniques Explained, Part 2

Diagrams:

stereo_mics_1.webp

blumleinpair.webp

Hope that helps.

Cheers :)
 
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I guess stereo on headphones depends on if you just interpret stereo as meaning two discrete channels that may or may not have a link. Stereo field is very messed up on headphones if mixed on speakers, and musicians with their own studios who mix on headphones often have very odd sounding mixes when listening on speakers. A good example is to record a single tone with the polarity reversed on one channel. On speakers, you can find a null point where the sound level drops substantially as the two wavefronts converge and try to cancel out. On headphones you just hear the tone in both ears but with a strange 'feeling' - I can't really describe that in words, but it doesn't cancel but you can sort of feel it?

One of the UK exam boards a few years ago banned their music examiners from examining student work on headphones, because stereo field was so unreliable.

If you listen to something like a stereo recording of an orchestra or choir, you can hear instruments and sometimes even prominent voices - and if you close your eyes and plot them on speakers, the placement is very different to headphones. For effect, headphones can stretch the sound field - letting you separate sound sources. Electric guitars, on headphones can be panned just slightly apart and they sort of 'unmerge', but on speakers, you have to separate them more. Dummy head microphones direct into headphones can be uncanny! Played back on loudspeakers, the effect is much less. Great to experiment with, though!
 
hellofellow! said:
so here's my first
I have noticed when listening to music in my headphones some sound can sound like they are really close (almost in my ears it seems like) and some sounds sound far away. Even if it is the exact same sound and the exact same volume one sound can sound extremely close nd the other far. I have messed with reducing around the 200 level but can't make the effect because the high frequencies sound close too! I thought that this was cause by the use of bass frequency only but then listened to "prettiest girls" by pharrell and noticed the bass did sound in my ears- it sounded far away- it was weird because I thought bass was supposed to sound close up.
Click to expand...

this is phase response. the more out of phase the left is from the right, the farther it appears when added in mono. but will appear ok in stereo.

this is why I encourage people to use a single power speaker in mono to check thier mono-compatibility. the more stronger the mono the more overall loudness in stereo. if things are cancellling, the mix will pop the strongest signal upfront the has less phase variance. and the loudest channel will appear about 3db louder than the rest.


speakers are the way to mixing, not headphones. headphone do not reveal the accustic summing of frequencies.


hellofellow! said:
another question- which mics are good for recording distant sound and making them sound distant- condenser- large/ small diaphragm or a dynamic like a sm57m
Click to expand...

this will awnser the above plus the last question.

look at the examples above. it is more of using more than one mic and thier polar patterens to develop a phase shifting profile sutible to output as a stereo image.
the bluemann (m-s) fig 8 (sideways) and on axis cardaroid technique is a favorite of mine for stereo gtrs. the most control is here. since computerized recording it is esy to take the fig-8 channel and phase flip it. the in phase to the 100% left and out of phase 100% right. the on axis mic (mic pointing into the speaker) pan at center.
now you have the 3 componates for a stereo signal x - z - y (Left- center - right)
now there has been very many ways people over the years have explained this and some might squak at my terminology, but its the end product is the result.

now when I record stereo overheads in the studio my favorite is the hybrid of decca and x-y:


behind the drummer about a foot to the left and to the right about 2 feet away, about the hieght of the drummer sitting down (and somewhere horizontally between the cymbols and toms) I point the small condensors towards the front both signals are flipped out of phase. in the center about the same distance the drummer is from the front of his kit (approx 3 feet) I'll put a large condensor mic in front of the kit. I point the back two mics to this one it forms an isoscelese triangle. this mic is the opposite phase of the back mics (in-phase in this example) then a small condensor mic for snare hi-hat pickup (in phase in this example). it forms another triangle, positioned above the kit between the drummer's right side and the center mic out in front.

the panning: back left 100%, back right 100%, snare 50% right, center center.

I've done this way both phases depens on how the tom mics sit when panned and added oh mic and how thier phase correlations in sit stereo, as well as how strong of an output an clarity I had in mono.


hellofellow! said:
another question- I was recording in the studio using an sm57 on acoustic guitar- the room is sound-proofed well. Since the studio has a digital external mixer I set the knob at the top of the mixer at about 7/8 of the the way to the right- this would increase some loudness(what is this know called) I also set the fader at -5dbs. Things were.going fine until Iturnup the fader and noticed a lot of shhhhhhhh hsssssss from the mix- not the guitar. Does anybody think they might know where this came from

thanks for reading this!!!
Click to expand...

this is a mic positioning the noise floor is more in- phase than the signal (guitar)
now you could play with it if you had another mic pointed fwd tothe one that you have 45 degrees or more shifted. gain might be to low in the recording and what happens is when someone normalizes (or radically increase gain) it raises the noise floor. If you have issues with transients clipping the signal before it is strong, you might want to try adding a limiter between the mic pre and interface to reduce the dynamic range.

also mic termination is a factor also. you see all mic pre's are not created equal. the generic mic pres are terminated somewhere around 3K ohms this makes condensor mics have better phase correlation than low z dynamics. put a 560-600 ohm resistor across pins 2&3 of the input of the mic pre cable connector to terminate the low -z properly. there are some pres out there with a "varible impedance " input that is just a variable resistor (potentiometer wired as a reostat) control across pins 2&3 in the mic pre. Brodcast mixer boards terminate at 150 ohms on thier input (like Harrison and Sandies/Dynamax) so an SM7 can have more gain than noise floor and correct phase coherence, and impedance loading.

Here is a little ditty I recorded at the bottom of a cement stairwell in a concrete basement w/o treatment, SM7 in front for the vocals and a AT-2020 to the 45 degrees to the right about 4 feet away on a short strait stand about the height of the 12th fret positioned somewhere between the 12th fret and sound hole. api 8mx2 w limiter on the at2020 8mx2 into maudiofirewire 1814 line ins, sm7 on one of the front mic channels on the maudio.
 

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rob aylestone said:
I guess stereo on headphones depends on if you just interpret stereo as meaning two discrete channels that may or may not have a link. Stereo field is very messed up on headphones if mixed on speakers, and musicians with their own studios who mix on headphones often have very odd sounding mixes when listening on speakers. A good example is to record a single tone with the polarity reversed on one channel. On speakers, you can find a null point where the sound level drops substantially as the two wavefronts converge and try to cancel out. On headphones you just hear the tone in both ears but with a strange 'feeling' - I can't really describe that in words, but it doesn't cancel but you can sort of feel it?

One of the UK exam boards a few years ago banned their music examiners from examining student work on headphones, because stereo field was so unreliable.

If you listen to something like a stereo recording of an orchestra or choir, you can hear instruments and sometimes even prominent voices - and if you close your eyes and plot them on speakers, the placement is very different to headphones. For effect, headphones can stretch the sound field - letting you separate sound sources. Electric guitars, on headphones can be panned just slightly apart and they sort of 'unmerge', but on speakers, you have to separate them more. Dummy head microphones direct into headphones can be uncanny! Played back on loudspeakers, the effect is much less. Great to experiment with, though!
Click to expand...

You're right. It's a totally different thing to mix on headphones. The interaction of the speaker with the air is different than discrete feeds to the ears because the acoustic wavefronts from the two speakers interact with each other and the environment. This is why a good monitoring environment is crucial. What's ironic is that the goal of a well designed control room and subsequent listening position is to eliminate reflections and receive as much direct signal as possible, kind of like headphones! The problem is headphones interact with the skull and its cavities which alters the perceived response. Plus having no outside environmental influence can be quite isolating which exaggerates the stereo field. Simply put, headphones can never sound like a speaker system because of the lack of air in between it and the listener.

Cheers :)
 
I smell a troll...... :eatpopcorn:

...but real nice lengthy explanations guys....pictures and everything! :D
 
Will this be another thrill-packed episode of "Taunt the Troll"? Let's all tune in!
 
there are always someone trolling what I post.
most of the time its derogatory when they come forth.

let us be entertained by the data-mining trolls!:eatpopcorn:
 
Uy yuy yuy. Do people actually just post to stir up shit in a forum? Some people have too much time on their hands!

Cheers :)
 
I won't swear it's a troll.....but....

...registered very recently, asked a LOT of silly-dumb questions, made one post and never came back to engage in discussion about the questions asked...
...and the real give away for me was in the title.

"I need a smart engineer......"

Looked like a set-up if ever I saw one.

:D
 
Harsh man, I don't think it's dumb. These are things I would like to know.
 
Mo Facta said:
the ear/brain uses frequency and arrival time at each ear to decipher where an auditory object is in space.
Mo facta
Thank you! I will definiteley use this information. You are very helpful! It makes so much more sense now I find it very interesting that our ears can sense small amount of dellay and tell the brain where the sound is coming from. Can you explain phase response and phase- what drtechno is talking about? Also, sometimes when I record I will a lot of low end, it can sound very cloud and obnoxious like someone is right next to your head saying "oooooooooooooooooooooooh!" what levels of even If I eq some of the sound out it's still there when I turn the fader up, just not as present as the other frequencies. How do I get rid of this "ooooooooooh!"?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Well....you got a lot of deep, detailed, technical answers, and all you said was "thanks, I'll use that info"....
...but if you understood all of the answers, but don't understand the basics of the "distant sound", "record in stereo" and "oooooooooh" stuff you are asking about.....
...just seems a little silly, and trollish-like.
 
First, duplicate the track then on the first track, isolate the "ooooh" sound. Find what frequencies are causing it. Go to the second (duplicated) track and invert the EQ of the "ooooh". Send both tracks to a third track and the phase cancellation of both EQ's will eliminate the offensive sound. Worth a shot.
 
Hopefully I will get better in time :) This is my first online forum. Thanks for understanding :)
 
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