I hope it's ok that I make this point

[shmaller]

AI isn’t really hitting the wallets of musicians…….Yet.

If anyone's interested in a longer read, there was a pretty wide-view article in The New Yorker recently about the rise of Spotify, its impact on musicians and the recording industry, which touches on Spotify's documented use of AI to mimic copyrighted music, and then replace that copyrighted music in its playlists to avoid paying royalties (which are already at an abysmal rate):

Is There Any Escape from the Spotify Syndrome?

The history of recorded music is now at our fingertips. But the streamer’s algorithmic skill at giving us what we like may keep us from what we’ll love.

www.newyorker.com

(if you haven't visited the site much you should get a free article I think? otherwise there are tools like 12ft.io)

 

[famous beagle]

I think this is a great question and a good discussion to bring up. I don't see it as a skeptical, cynical view; it's just that, as you mentioned, the lines of "creativity" and "authorship" are being blurred more and more all the time.

I remember a thread in here a while back where someone said something along the lines of "I wrote the lyrics to this yesterday, and I was able to finish it up with AI." This was a song posted in the mp3 clinic, and this person's only contribution was that he wrote the lyrics. He then fed them into one of those song generator sites like suno.com or something and called it "his song." Further, by submitting it here, he was essentially calling it "his recording," too, even though he had nothing to do with that at all.

It's these kind of instances that I think of when I read this thread and why I think it's a very valid question.

I certainly can't say I'm happy at all with the trend. I don't know for sure, but I have a theory that the reason pop music has become so dead and unimaginative harmonically is that it's been taken over by these "producas" that assemble tracks rather than compose them. I really hate seeing all those ads for "MIDI packs" and "Chord Progression packs," etc.

Don't want to bother learning music? No problem! Use AI.
Don't want to bother recording a song? No problem! Use AI.
Don't want to learn how to mix your song? Don't worry ... AI can do it.
Can't think of lyrics for the third verse? Let AI do it.
Can't think of any ideas at all? Don't worry ... let AI think of an idea for you!

 

[Dave Matthews]

The slippery slope of progression in tools available.
First we replaced drummers, then keyboard players, and bass players etc.
Music shows with lip sync and recorded music normalized.
Now AI can create all of it. Not a fan...

 

[dobro]

Look, I put a *lot* of time and effort and heart into making recorded music, and I'm interested in doing it better. That's one reason I'm interested in what other people do as well, and how they get there - I can learn from it. And I can do that better if people say how they assembled their recorded music.

Okay, two issues at least with the full disclosure approach. The first is tactful comments on what someone else has done. ("Pull your head out of your ass and lose the AI." Not tactful.) It's easy enough to be tactful and courteous, I think.

The second issue is learning from others' experience. (Thought to self: "He used EZDrummer. Perfect drum track. Too perfect. Boring. Note to self: Do not use EZDrummer.") (Thought to self: "I really like the sound on that vocal. He used a TLM103. I'll try that.") (Thought to self: "He miked that amp and it sounds great. Is it worth going that route? Or should I stick to the Scuffham S-Gear amp sim - no messing with mic positioning, no crappy room sound, no amp hiss, no phase issues, no tube purchase and re-biasing, no pissing off of the neighbors with noise. Eminently tweakable after the fact. Yup. S-Gear it is.") Thought to self: (He used AI to make that music. Forgettable.") In all of these examples, I don't have to comment or share my views. I just learn. Win.

 

[RFR]

Here’s a take on how and why AI destroys creativity.

 

[dobro]

The focus of this discussion started out as something like 'should we ask people to declare the mp3s they post here as AI-generated or AI-free'?

I'd like to shift that topic slightly to 'If we're going to do that, let's broaden the request to include, not just AI, but all significant aspects of a production.'

Up until now, this forum has been 'What does my mix sound like?' That's fine and that's a valid question. But why not broaden it to also include 'How I put this production together.'

I completely get this question: 'Is this your music, or machine music?'

But why leave it at that simple discrimination? Why not open it up to: 'How'd you put this together?'

The answer to the first of those two questions would tell me little more than when to hold my nose. The answer to the second of those questions would tell me tons of stuff that I'm really interested in, and that would make me a better mixer and producer. And generate deeper and more interesting conversations in the forum.

Whatcha think?

 

[PorterhouseMusic]

The focus of this discussion started out as something like 'should we ask people to declare the mp3s they post here as AI-generated or AI-free'?

I'd like to shift that topic slightly to 'If we're going to do that, let's broaden the request to include, not just AI, but all significant aspects of a production.'

Up until now, this forum has been 'What does my mix sound like?' That's fine and that's a valid question. But why not broaden it to also include 'How I put this production together.'

I completely get this question: 'Is this your music, or machine music?'

But why leave it at that simple discrimination? Why not open it up to: 'How'd you put this together?'

The answer to the first of those two questions would tell me little more than when to hold my nose. The answer to the second of those questions would tell me tons of stuff that I'm really interested in, and that would make me a better mixer and producer. And generate deeper and more interesting conversations in the forum.

Whatcha think?

I have a natural curiosity about that part of the creative process anyway. Whether I ask or not - I'm always curious about: "how'd you get from here to there?". It's interesting to me - how people put their material together and get it tracked, and mixed, and finalized. There's almost always something to be learned. I don't know why I like to know about that stuff - but I do.

 

[dobro]

That's two of us, then. One more gets on board, and we're a movement.

 

[RFR]

That's two of us, then. One more gets on board, and we're a movement.

We’re a movement. It’s official

 

[DM60]

I am starting new recordings, very early. We know what that looks like. I have a drum track, throw some chords down, scratch vocals. Pretty sparse. I was going though one of my releases last night and there is like 20+ tracks, just a whole host of all sorts of things, compressors, faders and panning in various positions. Looking very detailed. I think being asked how I got there is as much worth telling as being there. There is a lot of hidden work that goes into making a song.

I wouldn't be offended by being asked. Maybe embarrassed by not being 100% sure how I did get there.

 

[BTStudio]

I am starting new recordings, very early. We know what that looks like. I have a drum track, throw some chords down, scratch vocals. Pretty sparse. I was going though one of my releases last night and there is like 20+ tracks, just a whole host of all sorts of things, compressors, faders and panning in various positions. Looking very detailed. I think being asked how I got there is as much worth telling as being there. There is a lot of hidden work that goes into making a song.

I wouldn't be offended by being asked. Maybe embarrassed by not being 100% sure how I did get there.

Your start looks a bit different than mine. Maurice who writes 99% of the lyrics will have a song written and play it for us just with an acoustic guitar. If we like it ( which we always do ) then the next step is to record a scratch track with him performing the song at the relative speed and everything in the correct order. Once that is done I take the recording and chop it up and get it to land on proper time within the daw, adding for intro, outro, etc. now we have a template basically of the song that aligns properly within the daw.
Currently we have 2 songs that are at this stage.

 

[dobro]

I am starting new recordings, very early. We know what that looks like. I have a drum track, throw some chords down, scratch vocals. Pretty sparse. I was going though one of my releases last night and there is like 20+ tracks, just a whole host of all sorts of things, compressors, faders and panning in various positions. Looking very detailed. I think being asked how I got there is as much worth telling as being there. There is a lot of hidden work that goes into making a song.

I wouldn't be offended by being asked. Maybe embarrassed by not being 100% sure how I did get there.

I'm thinking more of an 'ingredient list' than journal entries. Something like this:

Recorded all tracks.
Vocal mic: AT 4050
BV mic: SM7B
Bass: DI
Guitar: amp sim Scuffham S- Gear (Tweed emulation)
Drums: Fiverr hire (not sure about mics)
Keys: Komplete Berlin Grand

And if you want to go crazy, or if we really got into this, or case-by-case and by request, the OP could include stuff like 'plugin chain on the vocal' or 'masterbus plugin chain'.

In other words, the forum goes from what it is now - essentially a display showcase with feedback - to a deeper dive into gear and production approaches.

The site couldn't legislate this as a requirement, and of course people could lie, but overall I think it would make things more interesting.

 

[DM60]

I'm thinking more of an 'ingredient list' than journal entries. Something like this:

Recorded all tracks.
Vocal mic: AT 4050
BV mic: SM7B
Bass: DI
Guitar: amp sim Scuffham S- Gear (Tweed emulation)
Drums: Fiverr hire (not sure about mics)
Keys: Komplete Berlin Grand

And if you want to go crazy, or if we really got into this, or case-by-case and by request, the OP could include stuff like 'plugin chain on the vocal' or 'masterbus plugin chain'.

In other words, the forum goes from what it is now - essentially a display showcase with feedback - to a deeper dive into gear and production approaches.

The site couldn't legislate this as a requirement, and of course people could lie, but overall I think it would make things more interesting.

For this type of site, I think this kind of information would be helpful to people. I know there are lots of folks on here that have really good knowledge. Maybe this would encourage more old timers to submit just for the teaching part.

 

[DM60]

Your start looks a bit different than mine. Maurice who writes 99% of the lyrics will have a song written and play it for us just with an acoustic guitar. If we like it ( which we always do ) then the next step is to record a scratch track with him performing the song at the relative speed and everything in the correct order. Once that is done I take the recording and chop it up and get it to land on proper time within the daw, adding for intro, outro, etc. now we have a template basically of the song that aligns properly within the daw.
Currently we have 2 songs that are at this stage.

For the longest time, I would have most of my songs at a 70% stage. Now that I am trying to expand my catalog and I am trying to keep it fresh, I am finding I am using the DAW more as a composing tool. Once I have something that could be workable, then I either start blah, blah tracks (literally) or a look at my list of words (hopefully lyrics) and start seeing how they land. Work from there.

But style has changed a lot since I started, not sure it is because I know more of what I am doing, or that I know less I think the more one writes, the harder it is to keep it fresh and exciting. Maybe that is just me.

 

[Serendipity Records]

I think this is a great question and a good discussion to bring up. I don't see it as a skeptical, cynical view; it's just that, as you mentioned, the lines of "creativity" and "authorship" are being blurred more and more all the time.

I remember a thread in here a while back where someone said something along the lines of "I wrote the lyrics to this yesterday, and I was able to finish it up with AI." This was a song posted in the mp3 clinic, and this person's only contribution was that he wrote the lyrics. He then fed them into one of those song generator sites like suno.com or something and called it "his song." Further, by submitting it here, he was essentially calling it "his recording," too, even though he had nothing to do with that at all.

It's these kind of instances that I think of when I read this thread and why I think it's a very valid question.

I certainly can't say I'm happy at all with the trend. I don't know for sure, but I have a theory that the reason pop music has become so dead and unimaginative harmonically is that it's been taken over by these "producas" that assemble tracks rather than compose them. I really hate seeing all those ads for "MIDI packs" and "Chord Progression packs," etc.

Don't want to bother learning music? No problem! Use AI.
Don't want to bother recording a song? No problem! Use AI.
Don't want to learn how to mix your song? Don't worry ... AI can do it.
Can't think of lyrics for the third verse? Let AI do it.
Can't think of any ideas at all? Don't worry ... let AI think of an idea for you!

This made me think about Billy Joel, who reportedly has an intense dislike for songwriting. The man is a songwriting GENIUS. No AI is going to write "Still Rock 'n' Roll To Me"!

You can only make high art through a struggle. When someone says that "AI can help in [their pick] department" and that it "just gets my projects off the ground" -- then they're not serious artists.

 

[Trojka]

The focus of this discussion started out as something like 'should we ask people to declare the mp3s they post here as AI-generated or AI-free'?

I'd like to shift that topic slightly to 'If we're going to do that, let's broaden the request to include, not just AI, but all significant aspects of a production.'

Just joining the discussion because I have very strong opinions about generative AI, and they get stronger every day. I'm not against using technology at all by the way. My drummer uses Superior Drummer 3 and aa electronic kit because his chemo brain doesn't allow him to play on a normal kit anymore. Because you hear a real drummer playing, no one notices this. It's not the technology, it just takes effort to make it sound good. When I see him work on the velocities after a take (his kit is 20 years old so not that sensitive and it always needs minor work), it's just not something a lot of people are willing to do: he mimics the fill on his lap and adjusts the velocities so it's just right. It's the same with any other kind of technology: human intervention makes it sound better. Depeche Mode ran their synths through amps, and miced and recorded them in a big room. They were played live by human beings, or were sequences on analog gear, recorded on tape, so there were a lot of irregularies that made it attractive to the human ear. When Prince used a Linn drumcomputer, he would stop the computer right before the fill, play the fill manually, and start it up again.

This forum is a community, a community of human beings. We listen to each other's creative efforts, and it takes (human) time and energy to do so. Twenty years ago, when I had more time than nowadays, I spent all saturday morning listening to new tracks that were shared. These days I don't even want to waste anyone's time with unfinished products (this is a personal choice, not criticism to anyone here) so I just work on it without sharing until I release it. I am very aware of the effort it costs to listen critically with the goal of giving guidance.

If you're willing to take that effort, you'd want to know what you're dealing with. I would be very pissed of if had listened to a song twice to make up my mind, and wrote a lengthy review about how the verses could be built up better and some lines needed more clarity, only to hear it had 'been made with AI'. Whatcha gonna do? Edit your prompt based on my review commentary? And if you do, will you then be able to drag me into your song emotionally? Will that ever happen?

Look, tech billionaires are trying to sell AI as a way to replace human creativity because they are frustrated they don't understand art and how people can be touched by it. That you can reach people without monetization. I refuse to get dragged into their kind of thinking. Also...at what cost (in regard to energy consumption and dehumanization in general)? I heard a AI tech billionaire say 'no one enjoys making music, it takes a lot of effort you know? It's much easier using AI'. They are so out of touch with reality it's insane. They really think editing a prompt is as satisfying as being able to play a piece of music after two weeks of studying.

I'm convinced people will always long for a human connection, it's what we do on this forum. If you use generative AI for your creative process, you're messing with that. I'm no longer making a connnection with you, but to some (or all) extent, with a machine. You can drag loops, use drumcomputers, autotune the living daylights out of your vocal track, but these are all yóur decisions, yóur identity. When you ask AI to write your lyrics or the chords, the only part that identifies you is your prómpt, the thing that remains invisible to the beholder. Maybe you should ask AI what it thinks of your song in that case...

 

[dobro]

Well, that pretty much wraps up *that* discussion.

I'm going the disclosure route from now on in this forum, by which I mean posting enough production notes so that people get an idea of how the project was assembled and how it came to sound the way it does. I think it'll make things more interesting.

 

[Trojka]

That is interesting anyhow.

 

[Deylight]

I think many on this forum have an "audio vision", sounds they hear in their head that they want to put in recordings. And everyone is limited/liberated by whatever tools they're using to get to those sounds. I use Logic. It has fake drums, sampled drums, and drum-like noises, and drum machines based on different players and styles. When I make percussion arrangements, I usually use all of those options willy nilly, and I feel like I'm in a candy store gorging myself. I recorded my bathtub running, then used that water sound through a vocoder plugin to make a "water running instrument." I play my saxophone into my SSL2+ and layer it in with fake brass instruments. Whatever I do, I'm chasing a sound and grabbing it the best way available. Personally the idea of AI creating melody, and performing vocals, is super offputting. Especially AI that's asked to perform like a well-known artist, that really creeps me out. But I can imagine someone who's chasing a certain kind of sound, even a specific kind of voice, using AI to achieve that, yet still creating an original piece of material that has merit. I'm too old/set in my ways/disinterested to ask the robots to sing for me, but I won't stand in the way of someone else using whatever tools they can to express what they hear in their head.

 

[DM60]

I think many on this forum have an "audio vision", sounds they hear in their head that they want to put in recordings. And everyone is limited/liberated by whatever tools they're using to get to those sounds. I use Logic. It has fake drums, sampled drums, and drum-like noises, and drum machines based on different players and styles. When I make percussion arrangements, I usually use all of those options willy nilly, and I feel like I'm in a candy store gorging myself. I recorded my bathtub running, then used that water sound through a vocoder plugin to make a "water running instrument." I play my saxophone into my SSL2+ and layer it in with fake brass instruments. Whatever I do, I'm chasing a sound and grabbing it the best way available. Personally the idea of AI creating melody, and performing vocals, is super offputting. Especially AI that's asked to perform like a well-known artist, that really creeps me out. But I can imagine someone who's chasing a certain kind of sound, even a specific kind of voice, using AI to achieve that, yet still creating an original piece of material that has merit. I'm too old/set in my ways/disinterested to ask the robots to sing for me, but I won't stand in the way of someone else using whatever tools they can to express what they hear in their head.

I think that is it right there. What one needs to use to achieve one's objective (not to sound too sterile) and accepting that.