I have a tape mixdown question...

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WhinyLittleRunt

WhinyLittleRunt

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This may sound stupid, but I think my common sense mechanism isn't working well...

I want to use my Tascam 38 to record my entire production, mixing down in between and doing it all analog. I would obviously need more than 8 tracks due to drums, etc. I do plan on getting a 2-track mixdown deck once my studio is up and running in my new house. Here's my question: when you record to the 8-track, and want to mix down, you send the entire 8-track mix as a stereo mix to the 2-track, right? Then, don't you have to re-record the 2-track mix to two of the tracks on the 8-track which now leaves you 6 tracks to work with each time? I'm slightly confused as to the method; I feel like the more you keep sending the mix back and fourth it will degrade. Keep in mind I've recorded to my 8-track, but never needed to mix down to a two-track deck yet so that's why I'm slightly ignorant...
 
Traditionally what you'd probably do is mix down to two tracks of a second 8-track machine and carry on the production from there. However, many productions will simply fit inside 8 tracks if you record the drums as a stereo pair (or mono!). I use sequencers a lot so I was able to lay down several parts on a single channel without too much hassle (switching to 16 and then 24 tracks made this less necessary).

Since you probably only have the one multitrack you'll have to mix to the 2-track and copy the mix back to a fresh bit of tape on the 8-track, as you say. But honestly, how many tracks are you likely to need?
If you're having to do more than one reduction mix, an 8-track might be too cramped for that style of music. What kind of music is it, anyway?
 
Mostly acoustic pop music but I tend to use a lot of mics on my drums. I do all the recording myself (like most of you) so finding my sweet spot with technique hasn't been a necessity yet since I've been spoiled with digital recording for so long. I have been known to use 7-8 mics on the kit alone, though I know I can do it with 4 if I treat my new live room properly. I will likely need to mix down once and copy back to two of the tracks on the 38, then continue on probably just the one time.

EDIT - in all truth, I will more than likely try to make use of the 8-track "as is", meaning no mixdown BS and just tracking to what I have. I just want to have the capability...
 
I'm slightly confused as to the method; I feel like the more you keep sending the mix back and fourth it will degrade.

Yep that's right - generation loss.

If you want to avoid the digital domain completely, and you need more than 8 tracks... you will have some generation loss.
However, instead of bouncing from the 8 track to the 2track then back onto the 8 track, if you can use only 6 tracks for the drums... you can bounce it down to the 2 tracks remaining on the 8 track and hence avoid going to the two track at all. And then you are still left with 6 free tracks (recording over the old drum tracks) to play around with before you have to do any more bouncing.
 
However, instead of bouncing from the 8 track to the 2track then back onto the 8 track, if you can use only 6 tracks for the drums... you can bounce it down to the 2 tracks remaining on the 8 track and hence avoid going to the two track at all. And then you are still left with 6 free tracks (recording over the old drum tracks) to play around with before you have to do any more bouncing.

'Course, unless you dump them into the computer as safety copies, this means that you have lost the original tracks and you're stuffed if you want to remix it.

Could you not use a sub-mixer to mix your 8 mics down to a stereo pair?
 
you may want to experiment with a combination of submixing (as mentioned) and internal bouncing.

when you record your drums, mic everything up as you wish and mix them all together to either 2 (stereo) or 1 (mono) track(s). you'll have to record, play back, adjust. etc. if you are recording more than one person at a time, you can do this for other instruments as well; recording 2 or more elements at the same time to 1 or 2 track(s).

then you can take two or more individual elements and bounce them all to 1 or 2 tracks right on the machine, opening up more tracks. in my experience, internal bouncing is preferable to mixing to another machine and then back into the same machine -- it saves you one generation and you have more flexibility (with EQ, etc) since you're dealing with a smaller number of elements in case something was not quite right.

either way you do it, one thing to watch out for when bouncing a lot is that the bass frequencies tend to build up due to head-bump, so i usually do at least a little bass cut every step along the way (and sometimes a high or high-mid boost) to keep things sounding similar to how they did on the first tape.

common elements that people bounce are things like background vocals, layers of instruments (if you're doubling/tripling the same part) ... it's also a good idea to bounce elements when considering where they will go in a stereo spread, or in terms of "mixing" with EQ later, i.e., mixing a bass with a glockenspiel -- you can control the relative balance with EQ a bit after the bounce. in general though, on 8-track, i have found it helps during mix time if the vocals and the bass are always on their own individual tracks.
 
You know, I never really even thought about submixing the drums.. (duh). That's what I used to do back in the day and I must've had a total brain fart there.

I use a Tascam M-308 mixer, which is compatible to the 38. Couldn't I use my main mixer to sub-mix my drums and then send that mix as a stereo out to the 38 on two tracks? I am almost certain I'd have to do some re-patching during the process, which means I'd probably want to make use of a patchbay...
 
Yeah...use the mixer to send a 2-channel sub-mix to the 8-track. It takes a few passes to find your mix/sound since you are pre-mixing the drums ahead of the rest, but once you find it, it can work well. Just go for a nice, well-balanced kit.

I think you complicate your life with the 8+ mics. I would find a good OH stereo pair setup, and just spot the Kick and Snare...and then just sub-mix those 4 mics, using the OH pair as the heart of your kit sound. The kit will sound more natural and easier to blend in later with all the other tracks...IMHO.
 
You know, I never really even thought about submixing the drums.. (duh). That's what I used to do back in the day and I must've had a total brain fart there.

I use a Tascam M-308 mixer, which is compatible to the 38. Couldn't I use my main mixer to sub-mix my drums and then send that mix as a stereo out to the 38 on two tracks? I am almost certain I'd have to do some re-patching during the process, which means I'd probably want to make use of a patchbay...

i agree ... the best results for my music have been 1-2 mics on the kit! took me a long time to realize it though
 
From an engineering - rather than a musician - point of view, if you have only one eight-track deck, you can do just what we did when 8-track first came out in the late 60's but consoles were still 3-track.

For the single 8-track deck without having to bounce to the 2-track and back, there's two main ways to do this. The first few steps are the same in both though.

1. Lay in a click track
2. Lay in a scratch guideman's track for the soloist to follow.
3. Lay in a scratch soloist's track for them to follow later when cutting the final lead.

One Way:
If you need to start the conventional way with drums, bass, rhythm guitar and piano and are fond of having a half-a-dozen mics on a drum kit by itself for example, then you'll just have to mix the drums
(or whatever) to a maximum of three tracks, mix down to mono on an empty one and proceed conventionally until you have six of your eight tracks filled, including the ones for scratch soloist and, scratch guitar/piano (guide instrument).

Now mix that down to two tracks as a Basic Tracks mix, leaving your scratch soloist's track, and your scratch guideman's track alone. If you want to re-use the click track being you have the guideman's track and the scratch soloist's track there, you can try that if you want, just remember you can't go back and get it later if you need it.

SO now on your 8-track, you have
1. mono drums,
2. mono bass,
3. mono guitar,
4. mono piano
5. scratch soloist
6. scratch guideman
7. blank
8. click track

So you take the first four, mix that to mono, lay it on 7 and start over, (keeping your scratch soloist and scratch guideman track through as many stages as you need).

So now, getting ready to go into your second stage, on your 8-track you have:

1. blank
2. blank
3. blank
4. blank
5. scratch soloist
6. scratch guideman
7. the mono mix of all your first four tracks
8. click track.

Now, do it all over again with your NEXT set of overdubs, mix the overdubs to mono and lay that on 1.
Do it all over again and lay the next one on 2.
Do it again for 3 and do it again for 4.

Now you have five sets of mono mixdowns of elements and you still have your scratch guideman and scratch soloist track as well as your click track.

Then you can come in and have your guideman re-record their final production track over the click track.
Do the same thing for your soloist, having them record over the guideman's scratch track, which leaves one open in case you need a harmony track to the lead or some other overdub at the last minute you just Have to Have.

NOW you can mix from the 8-track to Stereo, placing the various mono-mixdowns of your various recording stages in a pleasing arrangement from left to right, balancing the now-mono elements as best you can, leaving of course the soloist in the center surrounded by the other elements.

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Other Way:
Record from back to front, i.e. start off with a stage of recording containing the least-audible elements in your production, occupying a MAXIMUM of three tracks apiece for each element or group of elements.

Which means before you do anything, since you can't start off with drums and/or bass like you usually do because those are prominent in a great number of productions, is you will need to lay a click track on 8.

So after you lay in your click track to keep you on-tempo throughout, now you have to find out what necessary element is going to be the farthest back in your mix, Back in the day, we'd always record a scratch piano (or guitar) on one track so the vocalist or lead instrumentalist could keep their place, and then record a scratch vocal (or other lead) discretely on its' own track first, after laying down the click track.

Then you lay in the second-to-the-most-buried element in the first stage of your mix and so on and so on and so on until you have 4 of your 8 tracks filled, keeping your scratch piano/ guitar and scratch vocal/lead instrumentalist for now.

Now, take those tracks (i.e five for your First Stage elements, leaving out the ones for the click track scratch piano or guitar and scratch vocal or instrumental soloist) and mixdown, i.e. recording over your scratch piano/guitar and scratch lead (or do it the other way around) into what we'll call here a 2-track Basic Tracks mix (even though really its the REVERSE of a Basic Tracks mix being there's no bass, drums, guitar or piano in the mix).

So now you have a 2-track reverse-of-a-Basic Tracks-mix on two tracks.
If you still need your click track so you can lay in your drums and bass later, keep it on its' own track.

Now, repeat the process, a maximum of three tracks at a time mixing down to two (or one) until you are done with however many stages of recording will fit on your tape, re-cut your guideman's final performance track over the click track and record your soloist's final lead track over your scratch guideman's track, use the last one for whatever you want and mix down.

____________________________________________________________________________________


FOR TWO EIGHT TRACK DECKS:
Do the same, except you get TWO passes of 3-track sessions on the first tape, plus your scratch lead and your scratch guideman.

Mix each of those two 3-track sessions (1-3 and 4-6 on the first tape) down to mono and lay them on 1 and 2 of the 2nd 8-track.

Repeat with two MORE 3-track sessions on the SECOND eight track, and then mix THOSE two three-track sessions to mono and layback them to the FIRST 8-track along with the one-generation-down first stage mixed-to-mono tracks you imported from the first 8-track.

So, now you have four tracks used back on the first 8-track.
Repeat again with another 3-track overdub session leaving you one open for another sideman.

Repeat the process back and forth between the 8-track decks until your production is complete.

EXTRA HINT:

If you bump up the treble a LITTLE BIT in your first few stages that will be getting tape hiss from them incorporated into their mono (or stereo) mixdown of elements and bounced back and forth from one deck to the next, then upon final mixdown, you can take the treble level down a little bit for those early-stage elements and the generational hiss problem won't be anywhere near as evident.
 
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