I have 4 mics. Which should I use for what

M

mustardeer

New member
Hi, still somewhat of a newbie but I got some ok gear now.
I own 2 AKG C414 mics, 1 cheap Apex 460 tube mic (was told it rivals $2000 mics), 1 Audia-Technica AT4040.

All going straight into Apogee Ensemble and then Ableton Live.
I have hundreds of VSTs, plug-ins, effects on my tricked out MAC PRO.
I have studio monitors (2 pairs) and cheap speakers as well.

The room is not treated but sounds ok. I do have a SE filter which I don't like to use it because I prefer organic room sound to dry vocals with some reverb slapped on top of them.

Which mic should I be using for vocals, which for acoustic guitar, which for piano. The sound I'm going for is inspired by:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EHSRFZbya8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vFeHnFCuJU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg1jyL3cr60
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-Spe_Oz3c

any tips/tricks/experimental techniques with mic placement and which fx to use on what track are much appreciated!
I also sometimes run my mixes through an all tube guitar amp and mic the amp but the vocals get too mushy.
Also is it typical to apply a compressor to guitar/piano/drums or vocals only?
Sorry for so many questions, hoping there's a generous pro out there reading.
 
I guess people don't have time to read all that.

For vocals (Tom Waits / Elliott Smith / Thom Yorke sound) would you use the:

AKG C414

or

the tube Apex 460?
 
Well, I'm definitely no pro, but here's my suggestion.


Experiment. It's part of the fun of recording (if you ask me). Try different mics in different positions on different sources and figure out which ones sound the best to you. Nobody's really going to be able to tell you which mics to use or which mics sound the best. That's up to you. :)


That's probably not the answer that you wanted to hear. ;)
 
Thanks, yeah I get that there are no rules and sometimes cheap mics sound better than expensive ones.

However, there's a reason engineers with 20 yrs experience get the big bucks. Otherwise a 12 year old could experiment until something worked. It would be nice to hear what pros think about these two mics.
 
I don't own either mic, but for what it's worth part of the response (or lack) is from the factor that there are so many different ways to go' for a given situation and so many of those are essentially a different solution'- and not necessarily hugely better..
'Tom Waits / Elliott Smith / Thom Yorke.. ? Each of them would very likely match up' with different mics anyway.

On top of that you have at least six mic tones' and presentation' styles in those two mics alone.
http://www.apexelectronics.com/downloads/manuals/omapex460.pdf
http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,1128,pid,1128,nodeid,2,_language,EN,view,diagram.html
I would be inclined to check out both, in card, and hyper' and fig-8for sure, and play with distance (3" -- 10" maybe) on your own voice -and get ready for some tone' supprises.

Vocals for example, I always hope to try at least a few of my best mics to see of there is a particular better fit. Often though it comes down to a case of different interesting variations'. Too, you have to consider the situation, the person/people in the session, and not go too far down the minutia rabbit hole'.
At some point you just get on with it. (along the way your best guesses' get better.
 
Gee, after all that.. The 414. From what I heard (as in 'used) they are superb mics (theyr're also several different mics- you didn't say which 414'. :D
Then, get dialed in on where the $300 multi-pat tube beats it.:D
 
mustardeer said:
Thanks, yeah I get that there are no rules and sometimes cheap mics sound better than expensive ones.

However, there's a reason engineers with 20 yrs experience get the big bucks. Otherwise a 12 year old could experiment until something worked. It would be nice to hear what pros think about these two mics.
Click to expand...
Even though the idea of engineers making "big bucks" is pretty laughable, I understand your sentiment. The reason they do make what they do is not because they can experiment (though they do), but because they can hear the results of the experiments and understand what they are hearing.

Just a few notes first:

The 414 is the most popular of the mics you have listed, and is an excellent all-around mic. I'd be tempted to try that on vocals first, except for one factor; the fact that you have two of them makes them a pretty obvious possibility for use as a stereo pair on the piano strings as well.

The Apex I have no experience with, so I can't comment on that mic.

The 4040 is a fairly bright mic and might come in handy for brightening up a darker-sounding source.

You'll notice I'm not giving you pat answers saying use this on this, that on that. Because that's not really how it works unless or until you are familiar with your sources and how they sound with each mic. Some folks sound great singing into the 414, others may sound better through the 4040 o the Apex. Same with the piano, different pianos in different rooms have different personalities. A Guild dreadnaught is going to repond to differnt mics different than an Ovation roundback will. And so forth.

And then when you figure you have to mix them together to a particular arrangement - i.e. where each instrument has to get along with the others, the eventual optimal mic choice is unpredictable over the Internet.

take some time, try the different combinations - and different mic placements - and find the one(s) that work best for you. Sorry, but any more specific answers than tht are not going to be any more accurate or correct.

G.
 
mustardeer said:
Thanks, yeah I get that there are no rules and sometimes cheap mics sound better than expensive ones.

However, there's a reason engineers with 20 yrs experience get the big bucks. Otherwise a 12 year old could experiment until something worked. It would be nice to hear what pros think about these two mics.
Click to expand...

But the engineers with the big bucks don't have specific formulas. They know what works from years of experience, but very few of them could reliably say "oh, that mic? Exactly two feet from the kick drum at a forty-five degree angle" etc...

The number of variables (the room being recorded in, the players and the instruments they're using, the general feel of the song being recorded, and so many more) make it impossible to give hard and fast rules. The big money engineers get paid for their ears - they have a general idea from situation to situation as far as what should go where, but their value is in being able to listen once they've set up mics as they think they ought to be and make fine adjustments to get the sound exactly as they want it.

There are some excellent resources out there - free ones online and some great books - that can give you some idea of the general concepts and, more importantly, the reasoning behind those general concepts. From these general concepts is where your own experimentation comes in.

Which is all a long way of saying I don't think you'll get a much better answer than the ones you've gotten here.
 
The Cancers said:
But the engineers with the big bucks don't have specific formulas.

.....

The big money engineers get paid for their ears - they have a general idea from situation to situation as far as what should go where, but their value is in being able to listen once they've set up mics as they think they ought to be and make fine adjustments to get the sound exactly as they want it.
Click to expand...

Actually...I think all engineers have "formulas"...they'll just never use that word or admit to it, as they want you to feel like your session is unique in every aspect. :)
As you develop your recording style/approach...you also create formulas that work for you...though each session may require a different set of formulas.

AFA knowing *exactly* how they want something to sound and making fine adjustments to get it...well, that's also not very critical and true, unless again they ARE following "formulas" or they are recording almost the entire band all at once.
Most fine adjustments are made during mixing.

I mean...you put up a mic in front of a guitar cab...and in your mind you want a fuller/thicker tone, so you point away from cone...
....then come mixdown time you listen to everything all at once, and you decide the guitar is too "thick" sounding...so you EQ it to make it brighter. :D
Point being...there's very few fine adjustments that end up into the mix "as-is"...so I honestly don't know why some people spend two hours setting up mics on a guitar cab (or whatever).
IOW...you are going to manipulate the sounds in most cases anyway...how critical is that 1/4" or 1 degree move going to be later...? ;)

But yes...good engineers have the ears to know where the "ballpark" sound should be for what they are planning on doing later...likewise, they have a "ballpark" idea of which mics to select for which task due to years of working with them...which is a sort of "formula"...isn't it?
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
..And then when you figure you have to mix them together to a particular arrangement - i.e. where each instrument has to get along with the others, the eventual optimal mic choice is unpredictable over the Internet...
Click to expand...
I was going to add that in there too..
For example.
Sparse mix' > the 'subtle lush detail' mic pick.
Dense mix' > aggressive edgy' pressence'.
Same voice.
 
miroslav said:
I mean...you put up a mic in front of a guitar cab...and in your mind you want a fuller/thicker tone, so you point away from cone...
....then come mixdown time you listen to everything all at once, and you decide the guitar is too "thick" sounding...so you EQ it to make it brighter. :D
Point being...there's very few fine adjustments that end up into the mix "as-is"...so I honestly don't know why some people spend two hours setting up mics on a guitar cab (or whatever).
IOW...you are going to manipulate the sounds in most cases anyway...how critical is that 1/4" or 1 degree move going to be later...? ;)...
Click to expand...

Heresy! I tell you! ..Burn him!

:D;)

I know I go through phases; 'jaded, 'get on with it / 'experimental, 'wow, fascinating!'..
Round and round. :)
 
Wow, these are actually good answers.
I'll experiment and upload two different vocal samples with different mic combinations so your pro ears can tell me which one is "better".

I was kinda hoping to get a few practical tips, like the one about placing the mic a few feet away to get different tone is interesting. I've also heard about placing a speaker inside of the piano and miking that to get a natural reverb. There are a lot of tricks like that... I wish I knew more.
 
mixsit said:
I was going to add that in there too..
For example.
Sparse mix' > the 'subtle lush detail' mic pick.
Dense mix' > aggressive edgy' pressence'.
Same voice.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Or, from another angle, one song with more left-hand stride piano lines may dictate a brighter mic on the vocals than one heavier on the right-hand accent piano noodling with the exact same vocalist.
moresound said:
BLACKHAWKS BLACKHAWKS BLACKHAWKS BLACKHAWKS BLACKHAWKS BLACKHAWKS :drunk:
Click to expand...
Now all we need is for the Sox to kick some Cubbie ass in the Crosstown Classic this weekend and it will be a perfect sports week for Chicago! :D.

G.
 
mustardeer said:
Wow, these are actually good answers.
I'll experiment and upload two different vocal samples with different mic combinations so your pro ears can tell me which one is "better".

I was kinda hoping to get a few practical tips, like the one about placing the mic a few feet away to get different tone is interesting. I've also heard about placing a speaker inside of the piano and miking that to get a natural reverb. There are a lot of tricks like that... I wish I knew more.
Click to expand...

I think I already mentioned it, but there are some great books out there that are chock full of these sorts of tips and tricks.
There are millions of things that people have done while recording that went beyond "point the front of the mic at what you want it to record."
There are so many that it's really hard for anybody to respond to this sort of request.
They more often come up when someone asks something like "I'm recording piano tracks but they're sounding kind of dry and sparse, lifeless, the opposite of rich - any suggestions?"
The ensuing discussion is often when someone will say "well, we've tried putting a monitor speaker inside the sucker and recording that, it gave us some interesting results."
So, your options are either to cruise the various forums and read through lots and lots of discussions about various topics (which isn't a bad option, you start to see how certain things you might have learned as gospel originally started as one off suggestions and developed rumor-like into hard and fast rules [which helps you to start to question the validity of those very rules], and you also pick up a whole lot of really solid and totally justified technique and theory as far as sound engineering is concerned), look into some of those books (which, if you're like me, always with a book in your hand, is another great way to pick up not only interesting little tricks but solid, explainable ideas on how to go about getting things to sound like you want them to), or to experiment and decide what works for you in your particular situation.
In a situation where you had no exposure to other peoples' techniques but lots and lots of practice, your ears would develop and you'd end up doing a lot of things just as other people do them (ie, point the mic at what you want it to record), but you'd probably end up with some "tricks" of your own, things that would seem perfectly natural and automatic to you but would confuse and then blow the mind of a visiting engineer.
And when said visiting engineer asked "why do you do that?" You'd respond, "well, the piano was sounding kind of dry, lifeless, the opposite of rich, so I..."

When it comes down to it, though, there's just no substitute for setting up some mics and figuring out how to make the sound they capture match as closely as possible the sound that's in your head.
 
mustardeer said:
There are a lot of tricks like that... I wish I knew more.
Click to expand...

A lot of newbs read about cool tricks and unusual techniques and dive into that stuff without getting the basics down to a science.
The best records were made with straightforward, traditional recording techniques...because they usually work most of the time. :)

When I was doing TV studio productions for a couple of years, and the Avid systems were just out big...lots of the guys editing and doing post use to pile on the digital "tricks" (one FX transition after another)...
...but that became played out real quick.
The majority of good post came from basic cuts-n-fades.

I would say focus on the meat-n-potatoes recording techniques and the tricks will come on their own out of necessity. ;)
 
http://vimeo.com/12551506

ok as promised i recorded and filmed a friend live using your tips.
the guitar came out very good, i just pointed the AKG at the 12th fret,

but the vocals.. i was expecting a little more out of a tube mic.
Can someone look at the vid and tell me if the placement looks ok? The mic that's upside down is the tube Apex one and the one under it is the AKG.

I tried tweaking them in post but they were just too harsh, the levels were good though, never clipping. I was going for a natural, warm, organic sound.

Instead of using a reverb plugin i placed the fourth mic 6 feet away to get the room and worked it into the mix.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top