I Gotta warm up that guitar tone...

K

Kevzmusic

New member
Hi There,

I've been using Line6 modellers the past 3 years, or so, to record my guitar tracks (direct via the PC/Cubase SX, etc).....and they DO a pretty good job overall with lottza amp/cab sims available, and the FX are quite decent too....I like the primary concept, and it sure beat's mic'ing up a bunch of amps, etc.

I'm using the new XTPRO rack unit at the moment....

BUT, as we all know....these digital 'modeller' units ALL tend to have a somewhat 'sterile' edge to 'em - tone wise....

It's are getting closer (with each passing year)...but they still don't quite have that real amp, TUBE kinda warmth/richness to 'em.

Anyhow, my question is:

I'm wondering, whether I should get a decent TUBE Preamp to use with the XTPRO to warm/fatten up the tones up (say something like the M-Audio Tampa at $800)

or,

Buy a good, digital EQ unit...and approach it that way......

I have all the EQ plugins I need for my 'direct recording' purposes via Cubase SX....but I'd like to build a small XTPRO rack rig, that I can just pickup and go, for playing live.

Overall, the XTPRO's 'source' tones are good, it just needs 'something' to make the vibe a little less brittle edged...

A penny for your thoughts....

Cheers,

KEV
 
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You're coming at the problem from the wrong direction. If you want to get rid of the "sterile" edge of digital modeling and replace it with that "tube kinda warmth/richness", why would you want to use digital modelers as the starting point for your tone??? You're just throwing good after bad.

Mic a real amp. It's the only way.

Modelers have come a long way to be sure. The problem with them is they make everybody's tone sound the same. If you want real tube warmth; if you want something that doesn't sound canned; if you want something that doesn't sound like everyone else... you have to take the time to mic a real amp.

Yeah, it's a lot more trouble, and there are all kinds of variables like mic position, and room sound, and humidity, and blah, blah, blah... but tackling those variables is what gives your recording character and individuality.

No pain...no gain.

got mojo?
www.voodoovibe.com
 
"Mic a real amp. It's the only way."

Sadly, if you want realistic tube tone, getting an actual tube amp is really the only way. Maybe decades from now digital modeling will become good enough that it's unnecessary to have a real amp, but for the time being...

Besides, rather than buying a tube preamp, you could use that $800 to get a very nice tube combo like a used Fender Twin Reverb.

Or you could just wait a couple decades for technology to catch up :D
 
You just have to mic an amp. Nothing else will work.

And an $800 mic pre is not a tube mic pre, but probably an IC chip preamp which can mix in a signal which has been run through a starved plate tube for distortion. This is not the same thing as a tube preamp. If you want a real tube preamp, you need to spend at least twice that amount.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
 
Echoes said:
"Mic a real amp. It's the only way."

Sadly, if you want realistic tube tone, getting an actual tube amp is really the only way. Maybe decades from now digital modeling will become good enough that it's unnecessary to have a real amp, but for the time being...

Or you could just wait a couple decades for technology to catch up :D
Click to expand...

Hhmm :)

I guess I shoulda known better than ask this question here....it was kinda obvious that the 'tube merchants' would respond as such.....

Actually,

It won't be decades before digital/solid state modelling makes TUBES obselete.....in fact, I very much doubt whether young guitar players in 10 years will be wanting and/or buying amps with tubes in at all....eventually, the new technology has to completely take over.....

Modelling has come a long way in the last 3-4 years, and it's only the mic/AIR/speaker component thats still a challenge to reproduce....

AS for everyone who uses a modeller sounding the same....that's pure bunk, and just not so.....I've heard 100's of tunes, tone samples, etc., done with the Line6 gear over the past few years, and guitar players sound just as individual, as they ever did.

IF I wanted to record with a mic'd amp, I'd just go out and buy a SLO100 & cab....and do so....but, I enjoy the flexibility of having many different amp sims/cabs/FX to choose from in one unit...and the 100% consistant recording environment.

The difference between a tube amp & a top of the line modeller today is not as big as you may suspect....in fact, not big enuff to warrant me changing my gear.....

I simply wanted a few helpful suggestions with regard to adding a bit of "warmth"....not, the same old 'real' amp versus digital analogy. I've played guitar for 35+ years and owned many amps in the past....I know what a Marshal, Fender, Soldano, Mesa, etc.
sounds like....., etc.

My XTPRPO, sounds every bit as good as my Marshall 8100 Valvestate thru a 4x12 cab, in fact by comparison the Marshall is gritty/raspy.....and sounds shitty without a load of stomps stuck in front of it, and some EQ...

I just want to make the XT sound even better :)


KEV
 
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To each, his own. I meant no offense. I agree that digital modeling is definitely improving at a fast rate, but I think there will always be purists who choose to use the real thing. Anyway, I have never needed to use a tube preamp, but by all means don't let our tube-happy posts stop you from going out and trying one. Good luck getting that tone, whatever route you end up taking.
 
It seems to me to be simply incorrect to say that digital emulation gear makes everybody sound the same - what about fretting style, picking style, guitar type and set up, action, string selection, timing, and so on and so on.

Two thoughts for you kevz. First is that a tube pre before or after a digital modeller is just laying pre upon pre. Wiser heads than me can opine if this is sound. Second is that (as you know with your experience) the speaker itself is a major influence on the sound; I've read many times that speaker IMperfections helped create many classic sounds.

We got a nice 6 string sound recorded recently by using the bass guitar approach, mixing DI off a modeller with a mic'd amp.

Just my 02p
 
Hi Garry,

Yeah, a modeller 'is' a preamp/processor...but I know a few guys who use a Tube Pre with it......however, with so many different models on the market these days (plus all the friggin hype) it's hard to know what's a good unit, and what isn't - sigh :(

I was just thinking a TP might add some richness overall, and I do all my 'recording' late at night (home studio) so I can't make a load of noise.....hence the 'direct' approach....it's 100% consistant...and no angry wife & neighbors - LOL!!!!

When I stick my Marshall 8100 head (using the clean channel) in front of the XTPRO using it's amp sims & FX then thru the PC and studio monitors, the Marshall actually sounds MUCH better than it does on it's own with the cab....

An audio engineer friend said to me recently....'warmth' is in the EQ not tubes.....

I'm probably gonna get a decent digital EQ rackmount and concentrate on that route....plus get a better tube power amp (head) to go with it for live stuff.......and use the XTPRO as a preamp/FX unit.....my Valvestate is OK, but it adds a wack of 'noise' and using the clean channel it doesn't use the tube in it at all.

Cheers,

KEV
 
well, I sit in the middle on this one. I have been a modeller user for 3 years (J-station), and it beat the heck out of my solid state Fender amp, SS Vox etc. I love the versatility, and the ease of use of a modeller.

BUT, I now also own two all tube amps, a sweet little 7 Watt Garnet, and a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe 40Watt. Sorry to say, the J-station is nothing more than an FX box now. There is NO comparison in the depth of tone, the sensitivity to pick attack, and the sheer warmth that these tube amps give my tone. AND, I chose the J-station over the V-amp/POD/POD 2.0 because I thought it sounded better.

But, to each their own, and if you like the tone of your modeller better than your tube amp, cool. I sure don't
 
cstockdale,

a friend of mine (a blues player) uses the J-Station for his blues tones, and I must say, I'm very surprised at the tones he gets from it....for such a cheapo unit, it sounds very good. Not processed at all...

I've always gone with the Line6 gear, simply coz I feel that they are the ones pushing the envenlope more in that field...and their amp/sims seem to be the least 'digital' sounding overall.

The new XTPRO has wonderful 'clean' tones (just as good as a tube amp)....and the high-gains are good too, especially with a bit of post EQ...

BUT, like always, I'm just rying to get a little added warmth to 'em....although, that doesn't mean they aren't good.

Cheers,

KEV
 
Kevzmusic said:
I'm wondering, whether I should get a decent TUBE Preamp to use with the XTPRO to warm/fatten up the tones up (say something like the M-Audio Tampa at $800)
Click to expand...

I didn't read the other responses but I'm willing to bet they also say: buy an amp. A $200 pignose and an SM57 in a closet will sound FAR better than what you'll get out of an amp modeller.

Best bet, sink some money into a decent amp setup. Even recording at moderate volume, you will be far more pleased with the results.
 
Kevzmusic said:
Hhmm :)
I guess I shoulda known better than ask this question here....it was kinda obvious that the 'tube merchants' would respond as such.....

I am not a "tube merchant" by any definition of the term. I own a POD and use it all the time. I've recorded with every kind of doodad you can name since back in the days of the original Rockman. Some have been great and some have sucked (just like tube amps!). I give everything a fair shake. Digital modeling indeed is getting very good. I'm sure I could be fooled in a blind listening test. I doubt I could be fooled in a blind playing test.

AS for everyone who uses a modeller sounding the same....that's pure bunk, and just not so.....I've heard 100's of tunes, tone samples, etc., done with the Line6 gear over the past few years, and guitar players sound just as individual, as they ever did.

Couldn't disagree more. Everybody's playing styles will always be different, of course, but that's a completely seperate issue than the differences in sound derived from a real amp in a real room with real mic, along with a million other variables...

but, I enjoy the flexibility of having many different amp sims/cabs/FX to choose from in one unit...and the 100% consistant recording environment.

...and there's the rub. Eliminating all the variables is both the greatest strength and greatest weakness of a modeler. It certainly makes recording painless, but it's sort of like giving every painter a tube of "red". Of course they can put it on the canvas any way they want, and their brush strokes will always be different, and they can express themselves in a million different ways.... but at the end of the day they're still all painting with red.
I can hear it now..."A POD isn't just red... it's got all kinds of differnt amps in it!" Yeah, I know; but anything that comes out of a POD still has a certain sonic stamp on it, just as with any other piece of gear. Same with any Zoom or JStation or whatever.

Here's the real test: Give 49 players a POD set only to "Marshall PLexi" with a "4x12 cab", and 1 player a real Marshall with a 4x12 cab in a real room with a real mic, and let them experiment. I gaurantee you that the 1 player could get a wider variety of interesting sounds from that one setup than the other 49, who all sound just the same and have nowhere to go and no options to explore.

On the other hand, a POD is a thousand times cheaper, lighter, and easier to record. At the flick of a knob it can change to a whole new model, with a completely different effects chain. There are all kinds of trade-offs that every player must evaluate to decide what's right for them.

The difference between a tube amp & a top of the line modeller today is not as big as you may suspect....in fact, not big enuff to warrant me changing my gear.....


I don't suspect the difference is big at all, and I would never suggest you change your gear. If it works for you... use it.
But asking how to give your POD a more "TUBE kinda warmth/richness" was like asking "How do I give my Fender Strat a more Les Paul kinda dark/fatness?". Well, you could put a humbucker in it, you could mount the pickups straight to the wood, you could put on a mahogany neck, you could waste all kinds of money, but the whole premise is skewed. If you want a LP tone, why waste effort trying to get there from the starting point of a Strat??!!:)
Click to expand...

got mojo?
www.voodoovibe.com
 
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Re: Re: I Gotta warm up that guitar tone...

indydisc said:
I didn't read the other responses but I'm willing to bet they also say: buy an amp. A $200 pignose and an SM57 in a closet will sound FAR better than what you'll get out of an amp modeller.

Best bet, sink some money into a decent amp setup. Even recording at moderate volume, you will be far more pleased with the results.
Click to expand...

Well,

from your comment here I can tell that YOU obviously haven't spent much time using a good modeller recently....the gap between the two is very small these days.....and you shoulda read the rest of the thread, to get a gist of what was said...

Just for a wee live A/B test....

I hooked my XTPRO modeller up to a Yorkville 325W powered monitor and Yamaha PA cabs.......

and compared the sound of my Marshall Valvestate 8100 100W head with a 2x12 cab.

The XTPRO/Mixer combo sounded way better than the Marshall & cab set up. plus with the XTPRO's wide variety of sounds and onboard FX...it was a no contest....

The XTPRO produced a tighter, crunchier, smoother vibe...

I then, just for good measure, ran the XTPRO thru the Valvestate (using the clean channel) and the 2x12 cab......(using only the XTPRO FX) once again, the sound was not nearlly as good as the XTPRO/Mixer combo by itself....

The XTPRO/mixer combo sounds as good as any of the amps I have previously owned, except a 1988 Soldano.....

I admit, the early modellers of a few years ago, where crappy, processed, fuzzy sounding units, but they are just about there now, except in the 'direct recording mode' simply because there is no speaker-AIR compnent.......that's the only weakness.

TUBE purists look out - your days are truly numbered!!! :)

KEV
 
AS for everyone who uses a modeller sounding the same....that's pure bunk, and just not so.....I've heard 100's of tunes, tone samples, etc., done with the Line6 gear over the past few years, and guitar players sound just as individual, as they ever did.

Couldn't disagree more. Everybody's playing styles will always be different, of course, but that's a completely seperate issue than the differences in sound derived from a real amp in a real room with real mic, along with a million other variables...


Aaron,

Well, I agree with a lot of your comments, obviously theres a trade off in fuctionality, etc....no matter which route one takes....

However, the new modellers, like the XTPRO or GS-10 (Boss) do have a choice of MIC's and room positions, etc....which give the user the opportunity to customize their tones, just like in a real amp/mic situation....plus, this aspect of modelling is improving as WE speak.....

Sure nothing's perfect, and I was originally only looking to find a way to add a little warmth, in the 'direct recording' mode....for live work I can stick my XTPRO infront of any decent tube power amp & cab and get a great sound anyways.

That's why I though a tube pre might just do the trick.

Cheers,

KEV
 
The one thing I will most definitely agree on is that modeling is improving as we speak, and the time will come when tubes will disappear due to modeling for recording, just as synths have replaced real pianos for 90% of pop recordings. I certainly use my POD on tracks all the time, and there is no way anybody can tell the difference when the tracks are in a mix.
I think the same thing will eventually happen for live rigs too, but for a different reason: each generation of guitarists gets another step removed from tubes and grows up on modeled tones, and doesn't expect/recognize/want/care about a tube feel from an amp. They will be just as happy playing the amps they are comfortable with as all the '60's rockers are playing tube amps.

Do we live in an incredible age, or what? When I first got into the music thing, the thought of having a complete recording studio in your home was abosolutley unthinkable except for the very rich! 10 years ago you couldn't get a condensor mic for less than a grand. Now they're $200!

I guess a collection of the finest vintage amps money can buy is next. Going price? Around 150 bucks.

Aaron
 
Aaron,

So, getting back to my original question, now that you know I'm not going to chuck my XTPRO modeller :)

Do you think adding a decent TUBE Pre into the equation will give me some extra warmth/richness on the tones for direct recording....or should I just concentrate on the EQ angle, and fine tune my sound that way?

What do you reckon,

Cheers,

KEV
PS.....YEP, modern technology sure is amazing!!!
 
When I record with a modeler I'll sometimes run it through a tube pre.It helps some but, still can't touch the sound of my amp and mic.Try running your modeler into a power amp and speaker and micing it.I've seen little 10 watt amps built just for that purpose, can't remember the brand name.
 
Kevzmusic said:
Aaron,

So, getting back to my original question, now that you know I'm not going to chuck my XTPRO modeller :)

Do you think adding a decent TUBE Pre into the equation will give me some extra warmth/richness on the tones for direct recording....or should I just concentrate on the EQ angle, and fine tune my sound that way?

What do you reckon,

Cheers,

KEV
PS.....YEP, modern technology sure is amazing!!!
Click to expand...



Perhaps the reason you are getting answers like "buy a tube amp" is because if you want to get a tube sound, then you want a tube amp. You can want your emulator to recreate the sound of a tube amp and you may spend more money on things to help your emulator reproduce tube sound, but why spend all the money on emulation when you can just buy a tube amp and get that sound out of the box?

Also, a tube pre-amp isn't going to do much to "warm up" anything. The signature tube amp tone comes from the power tubes. Granted the whole chain is equally important (guitar, preamp, poweramp, rectifier, speakers, cabinet), but the sound everyone associates with tube is actually power tube break up at high decibels. So in that respect, a tube preamp probably isn't going to help out much.
 
Re: Re: Re: I Gotta warm up that guitar tone...

Kevzmusic said:
compared the sound of my Marshall Valvestate 8100 100W head with a 2x12 cab.

The XTPRO produced a tighter, crunchier, smoother vibe...
KEV
Click to expand...

In defense of us "Tube Purists," I would like to point out that your Marshall isn't really a "Tube Amp." :D

I used to have a Marshall Valvestate and while it didn't sound bad, it didn't sound anywhere as good as my REAL tube amp.

Having said that, I'm with Aaron, don't change your rig just because other people don't like it.

Man with bad tone laughs alone!
 
rvdsm said:
Also, a tube pre-amp isn't going to do much to "warm up" anything. The signature tube amp tone comes from the power tubes. Granted the whole chain is equally important (guitar, preamp, poweramp, rectifier, speakers, cabinet), but the sound everyone associates with tube is actually power tube break up at high decibels. So in that respect, a tube preamp probably isn't going to help out much.
Click to expand...


Exactly.


Aaron
 
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