I did a little tube-head comparison yesterday...find out!

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Speeddemon

Speeddemon

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I was in a reasonable store, where they had a lot of decent amps (Marshall, Mesa, H&K, Engl, Peavey :eek: ;) etc.)

I played three tube amps (each one had its own (same brand) cabinet (all 4x12" 's ).
The amps:
-Engl Savage Special (€ 2400)
-Hughes And Kettner Duotone (€1600)
-Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier. (€ 3000)

My goal was to find an all-round tube amp, that could be used for cleanish clean, surf, 70's crunch and rock sounds, 80's heavy metal lead, and modern high gain Pantera-like stuff.

And guess what, The Mesa and the Hughes sucked!
I played the Engl first, and it's loaded with controls. 3 total independant channels, 2 sharing 1 EQ (crunch and lead), clean having its own EQ). It had like 3 'volume' controls per channel, and a Master A and a Master B. It had 2 individual reverbs (a must IMHO, because I almost always give my clean channel more reverb than the crunch/lead channel. Except maybe for some dry funk stuff. Anyway, this amp was totally versatile!!! From Knopfler-clean, to Yngwie-lead, from Dale-crunch/reverb to Slayer-rhythm...

Then I tried the Hughes And Kettner. Too harsh for my taste. And no reverb! WTF?!?!?!! Yes, the blue glow is awesome, but I want a useable amp. Its clean and crunch sounds were allright, but it's lead sound was harsh, and not fat/warm/full.

Then the Dual Rectifier. A lot of controls here as well. Three independant channels, each with its own 4 band eq (low-mid-treble-presence) and some switches for (raw-vintage-modern) and actually the raw-positions sounded more wimpsy than both vintage and modern :confused:
This amp also lacks any reverb. :mad: And although it has some use, it's WAY overpriced, and not even close to the versatileness of the ENGL Savage Special Edition.

So, if you play a variety of rock/metal/surf kinda stuff, and you're in need of a good allround, great sounding all-tube head, the answer is:


ENGL SAVAGE SPECIAL EDITION!
 
If you haven't played a Sovtek, you haven't played a tube-amp.

-Jett
 
Never tried an Engl. Now I've got to hunt one down. ;)

Regarding Mesa/Boogie, I'm a M/B guy. I have both a TriAxis and a Quad and both give me all the tonal variety and perfect tone. However, they are very touchy. I can't comment on the Dual Rec, but M/B gives you a lot of control on some of their amps. This extensive control adversely affects the ease of use.

For example, when I first got the Quad, I thought it sucked because I couldn't get a good tone. But after trying some suggested settings, I achieved incredible tone.

Thus, when auditioning a M/B, first try the M/B suggested settings for your tone and then tweak from there.

Also, I don't think the Dual Rec is the M/B amp you should be looking at for that kind of versatility.
 
Lopp, what sub-$1800 Mesa amps (or heads) would you recommend then for Knopfler-to-Kreator and Santana-to-Slayer and Dick Dale-to-Dark Angel kinda tones?

I still need to testdrive some Rivera's, some Koch's and the Hughes And Kettner Tri-Amp (MK II)....

Bone, check www.engl-amps.de
I believe they were ECC83's ....
 
Speeddemon said:
Lopp, what sub-$1800 Mesa amps (or heads) would you recommend then for Knopfler-to-Kreator and Santana-to-Slayer and Dick Dale-to-Dark Angel kinda tones?
Click to expand...


"Sub-$1800?" New criteria. ;)

You can get a used TriAxis for under $1k. I run mine into a Lee Jackson which ran me $300 or so. That's sub-$1800.

If you want to go cheaper, you can get the M/B Quad preamp for under $600. It has two channels with two modes (lead and rhythm) each. It can get you all those tones, but it might not get them all simultaneously. I.e., optimizing the lead tone for one channel may not give you the rhythm tone you want on that channel.

I would never get rid of my Quad, but it isn't as versatile when trying to access all of its incredible tones without making knob adjustments. I often use it for recording or practicing by myself, where I have time to dial in the exact tone I need.


Cheers,
Matt
 
Matt,

I'm pondering on whether to get a mb 20/20 and quad or to go rivera...

what do ya mean by, they're touchy...

owned the triaxus and although i didn't have a good tube popweramp (had an ada microtube) it sounded kinda flat. a bit lifeless... my fault? is the quad the same?

Please, some advice

Thanks
guhlenn
 
By "they're touchy" I mean that the controls are not intuitive. The bass, mid, trebel, etc. controls adjust how different frequencies are sent to different gain stages of the tubes. They do not act like an actual EQ. They are used to modify your foundation tone. How they react to each other takes a while to figure out. Thus, I would recommend starting with the suggested settings in the manual and tweaking to taste from there.

I'll give you a brief review of the tones of the Quad and you can make your own decision of its value based on the tones you are trying to achieve.

The first channel is modeled after a Mark IIC.
- The rhythm section is the cleanest of them all. You can obtain anything between a smooth, full-bodied clean and a shimmering bell-type clean. I have achived my favorite shimmering clean tones from this section. I even prefer it over my Fender for clean.
- The lead section provides good dirt. While it is milder than the second channel, it can go as far as a decent heavy tone. As an example, check out Master of Puppets by Metallica where they used either Mark IIC's or Quads. This tone can take a little getting used to because it is heavey, but hot hyper-driven. Once you've worked with it, it can become truly amazing.

The second channel is modeled after a Mark III.
- The rhythm section generally gives a classic-style crunch. I can't comment much because I rarely use this section.
- The lead section can give up to a high gain, solo-style lead. Great for shredding and sustain. Kind of a late 80's style rock/metal tone.

You would find it difficult to try to get a nu metal rectified tone from the Quad.

Generally, for my tastes, I can only optimize one channel at a time. In particular, I love the first channel, but I have to use different settings for my preferred clean/rhythm and my preferred heavy/lead tones. Thus, I cannot switch between them in a live setting. Which is why I picked up a TriAxis (and for the rectified tones). I have yet to set the TriAxis to directly replicate the Quad. I'm having too much fun experimenting with new tones.

I can't say why you thought the TriAxis was flat. Possibly because of a lack of real power tubes, possibly speaker cabinet, possibly axe, possibly your taste in amps (Marshall or Fender tones)... I would surmise the TriAxis can achieve all the tones of the Quad, but I haven't tried yet.


Hope that helped.
 
I have to agree with Lopp.

I, too, am a Boogie guy. I got my first one (a Mk II B) in 1979 and absolutely hated it for about a week.

It takes a while to get used to the controls being 'interactive' for example adjusting the mids is going to affect the gain stages, too.

After I learned how to use it, I'm now on my third (didn't much care for the Mk II C) but the Mk IV I have now is absolutely wonderful. All the sounds you mention are easily available to me , although I've never tried to get Pantera - not a sound I want to use, although cascading the channels can get really way too much distortion for my taste, so I'm sure with a little tweaking it's in there somewhere. I also can get a whole bunch of other stuff, too.

Not familiar with the various 'new configurations' of Boogies - I can get whatever I need out of this Mk IV.

. . . and I'm constantly hearing reviewers say stuff like 'it sounds just like a Boogie'

So far, nothing has.

But Demon, if you like the ENGL - buy it and enjoy it.
But I would spend time with Mesa stuff before you go and make a final decision. They really are the best.

foo
 
thanks for the , very detailed, info. I appreciate it. I'm kinda stuck on the quad cuz i really don't like the way the triaxis reacted... but then again, i did miss a decent poweramp. my guitars and cab are fine... (gibson SGI, ibanez jem bfp etc... custom cab , closed back, with celestion greenbacks)

I'm not lookin for the rectifier tone, not at all... it's been done... anyway since the music i make is somewhat resemblant to nu-metal i'd like to stay away as far as possible from the typical nu-metal sounds, i want a little more complex, layered sounds... what came to mind right away was the mark IV, but it's expensive as hell, AND i would like a low powered poweramp to ghet some of the illusterous powertube saturation... I defibnately do not believe in 100 watt amps anymore... now i know the mark IV can be set to 12 watts by various switches, but is this the same as an 12 watt poweramp? i don't think so... but i wouldn't know either, so any advice you guys can give is very welcome...

ps i like marshall but i already have one... lookin for "the other sound" and in the end it's marshall or booige right? still would love to try out a rivera knucklehead...

thank you!!

Guhlenn
 
I just tried the Riviera Knucklehead last friday at Feedback Rotterdam!
It was quite good. I liked the Crunch channel better than the lead channel, the lead channel had something harsh and muddy at the same time to it, like it was coughing. The ENGL was more 'singing'. I tried the 55W reverb Knuckehead. It really has a lot of options (re:buttons and knobs ;) ) like the ENGL , but the Riviera is very picky about how you set it. I tested some of the recommended settings out of the manual, and I liked the 80's scooped metal sound.
I hear ya, Guhlenn, on the 100W tube power being too much. That's why I gave the 55W Knucklehead a shot. I still would like to try the Knucklehead again NEXT to the ENGL for some a/b testiing, and preferably in a large room where I can crank the amps. The test-cabine at Feedback was like 2m x 2m (6' x 6' ) so I was getting deaf pretty soon ;) ...

I'm also fed up with this overly scooped nu-metal sound, and besides, I like 80's metal way better. I like an amp that can also come close to a JCM800 sound. The ENGL did... and much more.
 
well speeddemon,

the knucklehead r55 can get down to 8 watts. But somehow i cannot dismiss the feeling that a rivera is just a souped up marshall... if you're going for the jcm800 with more balls sound, why not get a jcm800 and have it modded? i mean you can pick one up for around 450 euro, take it to the shop and with another 100 euro or so you'll have a gain monster... well anyway, I'm still debating on whether to get the mark IV or the 20/20 quad setup...

do you know whether powerreduction (ie in the rivera and mark IV) gadgets really work in getting powersaturation?

oh, i have got this gut feeling that heads just sound better then rack, can anyone comment?

Guhlenn
 
If you want a JCM800 type sound, why not just get one of them? I play a JCM800 2205, and c ouldn't be happier. Somehow I don't think that the "all-in-one" tube amp really exists. if you play surf, buy a fender, if you play rock, buy a marshall, if you play metal, buy a mesa, it all works better that way in my own opinion. The amps weren't made to be versatile, they were made to osund good in their setting.

Jake
 
Lemonz, I know what you're saying, but try the ENGL Savage Spec. Edt., it will come pretty darn close to all the amps you've mentioned. And frankly, MEsa Boogie is just WAY overpriced in Europe! ($2700 for a new Triaxis! :mad: )
 
My next amp!!!

I believe Engl Savage Special Edition has 4 channel!!! It has a lot of switches that shape the sound in a awsome way like Rough or Smooth Bright and Preshape!
It´s really a wonderfull head, you have to check it out.
 
jet-rocker said:
If you haven't played a Sovtek, you haven't played a tube-amp.

-Jett
Click to expand...

I have. I'd rather play though my toaster. Hehe.

I will stick with my little Custom Vibrolux.

T
 
I think I'm gonna go and harrass the people at feedback for a couple of hours...

my list to choose from;

mark IV
20/20 with several pre's
rivera KHR-55
i might try out the savage... engl makes damn fine amps.. but it's again a 120 watt head ...

oh well, i 'll get back here when i a/b them...

Guhlenn
 
Guhlenn, the 'normal' Savage, the Savage 120 is (duh!) 120W.
The Savage Spec. Edt. is 100W.
But still, it's smokes a goddamn overpriced Dual Rectifier!
I calculated that the ENGL + ENGL cab would be $2200.
The Dual REctifier + Mesa cab would be $4000 (!!!) :mad: And NO fuckin' reverb!
 
Okay - Guhlenn -

I got my Mk IV head with 1 x 12" Boogie cab with a 200 watt EV in it in MINT condition for $1,000 US.
The guy was a Marshall guy, bought it new and couldn't get a sound he liked out of it. I could of helped him because he wasn't willing to work with the amp to see what it could do - but I have to admit, I was selfish as I could see the way it was going and I needed a new amp.

Jrlemonz -

what's funny about your post is that I have a Boogie, won't use anything else (okay, except my Blackface stuff for Blues gigs) do not play metal at all, but do play every other style you mention, and jazz and country and the Boogie sounds great on all of them. Of course, I also have a variety of guitars for the right sounds to play, too, but the Boogie delivers rich crystal shimmer and sparkle in every style I want.
It's a killer!

. . . and Demon - Get the Boogie.
That way, you only have to spend the money once - for the rest of your life it will do everything you want.

:cool:

foo
 
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