hypercardiod for live performance with CG???

G

guitarlover

New member
CG= classical guitar btw :D

I may have a need in the near future for amplifying my guitar for things like weddings etc. (Sorry, it's what I like doing. I know it ain't heavy metal but dif'rnt strokes and all that crap). Anyway, I won't be using huge amplifiers. More like 20-40watts. Just enough to make it heard in a semi-quiet environment.

My question is simple. I don't like having a mic 6" away. I prefer it 12-18 inches. My thought is to go with a hypercardiod condenser mic (maybe 2 with a mixer). Phantom power is not a problem. I'm thinking hypercardiod to avoid feedback and amplification of room noise.

Is this a plan? If so, what mics would do this well? My budget would be in the neighborhood of $200-300 per mic realizing that I can buy them one at a time. Less spent would be OK if something good-sounding would be available.

I have been searching the archives and I realize that the name of this forum is HOMERECORDING but I've seen some great advice in many areas and I felt you might be able to help.

Regards, Steve

PS I ordered an M-Audio DMP3 today per the recommendations I got here. Thanks. :D
 
I've used AKG C414B-ULS for just the sort of work you are describing. and if you don't like hypercardioid...click... that's not a problem. It is actually a rather good live guitar mic, up to a certain volume level.-Richie

Oops, missed your budget line. I'm not the type that always says, "If you just spent a few hundred more, you could buy..."
This one was an honest mistake. A lot of condensers will work live, and hypercardioid isn't a bad choice. Churches (weddings) come with a whole lot of natural reverb, though, and condenser mics on guitar can become feedback problems, especially if your EQ is not well managed. I would try one Oktava MC012. Check ebay or walk into a Guitarrrgh Center. You can get the hypercardioid capsule at The Sound Room for $65. At most, you'll be out $165, and you'll have a nice little mic with 2 capsules. I can't tell you what the feedback issues will be, though. The other thing I would try is a plain old SM57. You might be surprised. Good luck.-Richie
 
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mixsit said:
Not sure what a second mic would bring to a live situation though.
Wayne
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My thought was a better tone. Aim them at different parts of the guitar the same as is done in the studio. I could be wrong here as it relates to a live situation, it may make no difference. I'm here to learn. Hey, I don't mind saving money!

Regards, Steve
 
You mentioned some fairly studio-like mic distances, and a rule of thumb for live came to mind (that I'll probably get wrong:rolleyes: ) -every time you double the number of open mics the available gain before feedback goes down (?) db, something to that effect.
:)
 
mixsit said:
You mentioned some fairly studio-like mic distances, and a rule of thumb for live came to mind (that I'll probably get wrong:rolleyes: ) -every time you double the number of open mics the available gain before feedback goes down (?) db, something to that effect.
:)
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Hi, That's a very good point and one that I hadn't considered. I guess that's why I spend time here, to learn.

(I happened upon the AKG C1000S today at a local music shop. They highly recommended it for live and according to what was told, it is hypercardiod. Any thoughts on this?)**

**Ignore this. I just did a search on the forum and I think I know what the consensus will be! :eek: Sorry for bringing it up!?!

Thanks, btw, for all the help, Steve
 
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As Harvey Gerst reminds us, a guitar is a fairly large sound source because it radiates from its whole top. And, as has been noted already here, an additional microphone just adds to feedback woes. So a single hypercardioid is likely to result in deficient tone and a pair of them may result in feedback.

The ideal polar pattern for this application - unless you have monitors pointed back at you - is the figure of eight. Greater "reach", almost no pickup from the sides, and good off-axis response. For your budget: Oktava ML-52.

If you'll have monitors pointed at you from the front: Disregard everything I just wrote.
 
Well, I own an Oktava ML-52. Although a unique and interesting vocal mic, it is far from an ideal guitar mic. It also requires a lot of gain, being a ribbon mic. That's why I keep coming back to 2 live acoustic guitar favorites for small venues- AKG C414 and Shure KSM44. Frankly, I think a good cardioid well placed is probably the best option, and a mid sized diaphragm is a good choice as a compromise. Three mid-priced mics that will get the job done- Audio-Technica 4033, AKG C2000B, Shure KSM32. I can speak from experience when I say that the C2000B is a very good live guitar mic, in smaller clubs. I choose to close mic, though. This 18"-24" live is a feedback makin' machine with any mic.-Richie
 
Richard Monroe said:
I choose to close mic, though. This 18"-24" live is a feedback makin' machine with any mic.-Richie
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Well, I may have to rethink my idea then. Such is life. Thanks for the additional mic ideas, I will check them out also. I also like the thinking regarding going with a cardioid rather than hypercardioid. Makes sense. Use a single cardioid rather than two hypers.

I may just experiment with a couple of cheapies I have, Shure PG81's, before I spend any money. I'll see if I can get comfortable with 12" or so. Who knows?

Thanks again, Steve
 
I think that's a good idea. They use the SM81 extensively on live soundstages (the Grammy's, etc) for a guitar mic. I'm betting if a PG81 works/doesn't work, the results will be similar with another cardioid SD.-Richie
 
this may be out of the question, but i thought i'd ask because it would be a simple solution to your problem. Would you consider putting a pickup on your classical? I'm not expert in this field, all i know is that i have one that comes right out, so no extra guitar damaging installation. However, i know you were very concerned about tone, so this may not be the route to go.
 
artCROSS said:
this may be out of the question, but i thought i'd ask because it would be a simple solution to your problem. Would you consider putting a pickup on your classical? I'm not expert in this field, all i know is that i have one that comes right out, so no extra guitar damaging installation. However, i know you were very concerned about tone, so this may not be the route to go.
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Sorry, Not a chance. I realize that pickups have many things that recommend them. Chief among them is that they produce no feedback. With classicals , however, the quality of the amplified sound can vary tremendously and from what I've been told, it doesn't have much to do with the quality of the guitar. My guitar is insured for $5000 so I'm not willing to experiment. I know there is one company that makes a dual system, pickup and soundhole mic. This supposedly gives a good reproduction. The problem is that you are back to the feedback problem.

As an aside, I have a SoloEtte travel guitar. It uses a pickup which can feed headphones or an amp. The amplified sound is more metalic than I would like and just doesn't have the warmth of an acoustic. In all fairness though, It does do a fine job for what it is.

I suppose if I really wanted to go that route, I would purchase a guitar with the pickup already installed so I could listen before I bought. The problem is that don't do enough of this stuff to warrant it.

Regards, Steve
 
One point- the idea that pickups don't produce feedback is flat out bogus. Any instrument that uses resonance to produce sound can feed back, including all stringed instruments. Hell, electric guitars feedback just fine.-Richie
 
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