How to spend Christmas Money.

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mgiles7

New member
I originally posted first in Cpu and soundcard land under the thread "Clueless Opera Singer", But I think I may belong here. I am an Opera singer/acoustic guitar songriter looking for a reasonable way to record demos to send to Opera company's as well as play around with the songwriting in my spare time. I have a decent cpu, but don't know whether to go that route or buy a digital multi-track recorder. I won't be useing many tracks, but I want something complete that I can burn a cd in my home and just send it off. I have around $1,000, but I have no previous equipment, so this has to go to whatever recorder I go with, plus a mic and other various things. Any suggestions?

Just some other info
Cpu does not have a CD-RW on it
I do have a small 4 channel peavey amp and a home made floor moniter
I am very bad on technical terms so please stay simple. (if that is possible)
I am a guy (the people in the last room seemed to get the impression I was a woman-no hard feeling though)
 
Hey, when you say "Opera Singer", most non-opera-fans will instantly flash on Brunnhilde with the horned helmet and the 42DD breastplate- I know I did (;-). It's human nature: Wagner has screwed up generations of people's perceptions of the form... So of *course*, you'd be female, somewhat heavyset, and prone to battle. And after you sing, we all get to go home (;-). Goes without saying.

The preceding paragraph was intended to be *humorous*, for those readers who might be humor-impaired. It even had two smileys! Don't shoot me- it's the holidays...

I personally would recommend investigating the digital multitracker route, rather than going through the drama of building a reliable, enjoyable computer based recording environment. However, either will work, and there are people here who've done both successfully.

There are also people here who've become very frustrated with the computer route, in dealing with hardware-versus-software issues, driver conflicts, and the myriad gotchas that crop up. Similary, there are those who bought a multitracker and found that it was not flexible enough for their needs.

It really depends upon how much time you want to spend, how easily frustrated you are, and how much PC knowledge you have. If you've hacked on PCs for years, then that's the most flexible route. If, on the other hand, you regard the PC box as being solid like a potato, you may well find that you are more productive sooner (and less frustrated) going with the solution-in-a-box: you'll certainly be up, running, and printing tracks much sooner.

It really is a judgement call, and the most important ingredient is your level of sophistication (and patience!) as a computer user. I know people who don't even know how to send email, but produce wonderful work on Portastudios. I also know folks who can field-strip a Pentium bindfolded, and not lose any of the jumpers (;-). Your call!
 
Skippy,

Thanks for your comments! It is too bad I am not the over-weight
Horned Female you speak off. If I was I could just belt out a couple of notes anytime I felt like it and my whole office could just up and leave for the holiday's. =)

I think your right about going with the solution in the box. i am cpu illeterate when it comes to much besides surfing and job related work.

So, do you have any suggestions as to some reliable equipment to research? I was just looking at that new tascam Portastudio 788.....or something like that. it seems to be a preatty good deal. Although, I was wondering if you have to have a tascam CD-RW to burn CD's or if just anything can be used with it? I also am clueless as to whether it has built in pre-amp and all that jazz.
 
I have a friend who has the 788 and really likes it. That unit is a very powerful machine, and capable of producing some very good work. And you can use it efficiently without the manual, so if you actually _do_ read the manual you can do some real damage!

Here's a good resource for learning more about that machine: http://209.216.16.19/cgi-bin/ubbcgi...88+Digital+Portastudio&number=13&DaysPrune=10

The 788 has somewhat limited preamps: no phantom power. They will work with a reasonable dynamic mic, like an SM57/58, but to run a condenser mic you'll need an external preamp to supply phantom power. The CDR burner is an external item, but it's actually just a run-of-the-mill TEAC SCSI drive- so you might well be able to just reuse your computer's CDR drive if it is one of the supported drives, or you could simply buy the external 788 CDR unit and be done with it.

Not everybody here wants to play with the gear: for many folks, it's much more about the making of the music, and the gear just needs to stay out of the way. There's a whole continuum of interests... But this isn't a bad unit to check out if you're more inclined to play than to poke!
 
Do you know any significant differences between that (tascam 788) or the Korg D12? They are about the same price. I wonder if one would be more classical music inclined than the other.

Also, do you know any good Opera company's out in Colorado??
I would love to end up there some day. I refuse to vacation anywhere else. =)
 
I'm not that familiar with the Korg, but it also has a fairly large following. Unlike the 788, I've never laid hands on that one, so I can't say much about it. You might check this resource though: http://www.crmav.com/recording/gear/90/d12_12_track_digital_recorder.shtml

Either one should work well for classical music: ultimately, they both just print whatever you put into them.

Opera companies? Well, there's whatever goes on up at the Denver Center for Performing Arts. They're pretty highly regarded, as I understand it. But the best place round these parts is about 5 hours south: they have this little opera company down in Santa Fe, New Mexico, that has just the finest performance facility I've *ever seen*... If you get out here again, you have to swing down there. I managed to finagle a backstage/techie-nerd tour of the place, and really enjoyed myself seeing how the real top-shelf, cost-no-object pros do it. But I don't know that I can ever be an opera fan: they were doing a rep tuneup of "Cosi Fan Tutti" onstage at the time prior to opening up their '98 season. Jayzusss... I do love pretty much all music, but without the libretto I'm well and truly _screwed_! (;-)
 
Yea, I'm quite fmiliar with Santa Fe, that would be like a dream come true to land there! But I'm only 25, so I would have to go through the young artist program, which would still be awesome, But you have to be like the best in the country to get accepted. Which I'm working on. And hopefully whatever system I buy will help me with that.

Thanks for all your help! And have fun with your new Ghost!
Merry Christmas!

Matt
 
Hey, I've Got one more question. If I go with either the Tascam or the Korg - what are the most important items to gather to get on my feet hte quickest? Here is what I was thinking-

Nice Mic
Blankets to put up on my walls =)
Maybe a pre-amp
Maybe a compresser
maybe a CD-RW

Am I leaving out any extremely important things?
 
I have the Korg D1600 (I think I responded to you in another post). I also have a Rode NT1 mic, a DBX compressor, some various SM57s and SM58s, and tons of cables. IMHO, the thing I use the most is the NT1, or a decent pair of headphones. Make sure to buy at least one nice cable if you go with the mic first, because you will learn to hear te difference. I would recommend a Korg D12, a Studio Projects C1, and a decent set of headphones. Be aware that headphones are not the best choice for clear sound representation, but they'll do untill you can upgrade. All in all, you should be about $1200-1300, a little more than you wanted to spend, but worth every cent. Also, you have some good, proven basics to start with, and can easily add a CDR later, or a nice preamp. Good luck in your purchase!!

Pete
 
Sorry...

C1 is a large diaphragm studio condensor mic.
I think the link is www.studioprojectsusa.com
Check around the forum under microphones for some great reviews of these mics. Also, the B series should be out shortly, with the B1 expected at around $99.

Pete
 
I checked out the review of the C1 and it looks like a winner.

Korg D-12
Studio Projects C1 Mic
Good mic cable
Blankets for the wall
Decent $100 sony headphones

Can I actually get started with only these things?
 
There are always little costs...

Well, let's see...
Mic stand, $20; windscreen/pop filter, $20 or a hanger and a pr. of nylons; a mic pre would help, like the midiman audio buddy (2 channels--do a search on the forum for this) $80; You'll need to drop your finished material to a CD somehow until you get your CDRW, so figure finding a friend with a cpu and CDRW to dump audio into:), and you really should be set. And like I said before, you can always add more stuff to your setup. It's nice to spend the extra money on stuff you can add to rather than replace. Most importantly, whatever you get, learn it and use it. Like Skippy said, you can do some real damage with just about anything, as long as you're patient throughout the learning process.

Pete
 
Sounds great!

There is a Korg D-12 bidding for $450 right now on ebay
And I also found a Studio Projects C1 that I could buy for $225 right now if I wanted. Sounds like I might be in buisness!

Thanks for all your help! Have a gret Christmas!

Matt
 
One more thing...

... there's always one more thing :D

I don't think the D12 has phantom power, which in case you don't know, is needed to power the mic. Sorry if I am telling you something you know already. Get the Midiman Audio Buddy for $80 at zzounds.com and not only will you have a great low budget pre amp for mic or guitar (or both at the same time :D ) you'll also have two channels of phantom power, one for another mic down the road. You need phantom power to power most condensor microphones, of which the C1 is a large diaphragm condensor.
Better to say the obvious and have you over-understand than have you curse me for mis-representing this later!!:D :D
And ask questions. They people on this BBS are great.

Hoppy Holidays,
Pete
 
Thanks for the advice! I didn't know that, so for future reference if your ever helping me again...Always state the obvious with me. =)
 
Hi Matt,

I'm going to disagree with Skippy and the others (all of whom are my betters as far as knowledge about recording goes) for the simple reason that I don't think you have any idea what you're getting into, and I mean that only in the kindest, best way.

Personally, I think you'd be far better off finding a local amateur or semi-professional recordist who'd be willing to help you do your demos, whether inexpensively, out of friendship and interest in the hobby, or in exchange for use of your voice on a couple of his projects. I traded some voice-over work for recording favors in decades past, and it was a good deal for all parties. Some people simply should not try to own the means of production. You may be one of them. Plus, it's kind of fun (and shocking at first) to hear your voice being used on local radio and television commercials. :-)

And even if you DO want to own some recording equipment (why, oh why?), I'd still steer you toward cassette tape and/or minidisc rather than the fancy stuff. Here's why:

Your voice has got to be great, and at the top of your range, your projection will overload a lot of systems, yet compression on operatic vocals (or pitch correction or reverb or all the other processing that goes into producing pop vocals, for instance) is ENTIRELY inappropriate for an operatic audition tape (or CD). If I was listening to your tape and it sounded commercially processed, I wouldn't even finish it -- I'm auditioning a singer, not a record producer.

Just getting a CD from a singer would make me suspicious. I'd much rather hear a well-recorded cassette of a live performance, with accompaniment. I KNOW what that's supposed to sound like, and my hearing can adjust for the limitations of the medium.

Just the MICROPHONE for a voice like yours should not cost less than about $700, and it should be backed up by a microphone preamp in the $1800 to $2000 range. Those are minimums -- you'd probably benefit from MUCH more expensive equipment (like $5,000+ mics and $7,000 mic preamps). All this before it ever reaches any sort of recording or mastering unit. You're kidding yourself if you think you're going to make a great recording of your voice with $1,000 in new equipment.

A good cassette deck for $400 is the Tascam 202 Mk III, available from Zzounds.com. It has mic inputs on the front -- not great, but useable. It has two *recording* wells (not one recording well and one playback-only well). It makes great dubs. It has auto-reverse. It's cheap and reliable.

A good mixer with 4 mic preamps and phantom power is the Mackie 1202 VLZ PRO, available used on ebay for about $275. Note that the 1202 and the 1202 VLZ are not the same as the latest 1202 VLZ PRO -- they should be cheaper, but you'll want the VLZ preamps.

Good mic cables are about $50 each -- BLUE Kiwi are great, available from Music123.com.

The Mackie lets you record in monoaural and output to two channels (this means the sound on playback from your Tascam won't just be coming from one speaker, but it's not true stereo -- you don't really need it).

A minimal mic for your voice would be the Studio Projects C-3; don't bother with the C-1 for your voice. The C-3 is $350, multiple pattern (which lets you add in some natural ambience), and is a stone bargain at the price.

So here's a sample list:

Tascam 202 Mk III from ZZounds.com $389
Mic Stand and BLUE Kiwi from Music 123 $90
Used Mackie 1202VLZ PRO from ebay $287 (shipping)
Studio Projects C-3, new, ebay $349
Blank cassette tapes $20

That's $1135 without even getting into a CDR deck or minidisc player or sound card or any of that other stuff.

I don't mean to be a Luddite or a curmudgeon, but I've worked with enough good voices to know that your gifts may not be in electronics, nor should they be.

I sincerely encourage you to network/locate/find/beg-borrow-steal access to a recordist who might be willing to work with you for free or trade in lieu of spending a bunch on your own recording equipment.

My apologies if this seems presumptuous or contrary. Although I acknowledge the validity of what everyone else here has said, your situation may warrant a simpler approach.

With kind regards and hoping to hear you sing live some day,

Mark H.
 
And to the others who responded, I just want to reiterate:

Matt asked a question, and you guys answered it thoughtfully, carefully, creatively and perfectly. Man, I wish I knew as much as you all do!

I want to make it clear to Skippy (my hero!) and the rest of you that I meant no disrespect for your answers and learned a lot from them (as will Matt).

Thank you all and best wishes for a very Merry Christmas.

Sincerely,

Mark H.
 
Hey, thanks for the kind words!

No offense taken, and your point is absolutely valid: that alternative needed to be presented, as much as any other. Recording is an art, every bit as much as musical performance itself is an art. And one size will _never_ fit all. There are gifted recordists who are only average musicians (or worse!), and there are gifted musicians who will never grasp all the subtleties of printing sound on tape (or into a computer). That's why there are such a range of answers to the question of "which way should I do this?". The answer is always different for each person.

The thing that's the top of the heap in my mind is that none of us were born knowing this stuff, and the only way to find out is to try it. A modest investment will let the budding recordist find out if this is really their cup of tea, and if so: they're off and running. If not, they should be able to resell their gear and go back to doing the performance side of the business, and head off to a pro room when they've got material cooked down to perfection. But I still fall on the other side of that quandary: you'll never know unless you _try_.

The hard thing is to steer a new recordist in a direction that will let them achieve usable results quickly and with a minimum of frustration, so that they'll know how useful a tool for songwriting having some recording chops can be. More than one person has given up altogether and taken up golf instead, driven entirely by the frustration of all that _gear_, when what they really wanted was to make *music*. I'm a real fringe-area guy in that respect: I love using the gear to create every bit as much as I do using the instruments to create. To me, they are one and the same after all these years. But to a newbie who wants to demo a song that's rattling around inside their heads? The gear-slut uber-nerd way I'd do it would be all wrong for them, most likely; it'd poison the whole experience, having to deal with all that _stuff_.

It's a tough call, and that's why it is good to see lots of different people weigh in with answers: every one of which is absolutely valid. It really does go to show that this art is relatively easy to learn, and absolutely *impossible* to master. I learn something new everytime I read this site, and I'm glad to be able to put something in in return...

And Merry Christmas to all!
 
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