How to record electric guitars

[famous beagle]

Not a great analogy, is it.
Using buttons on the TV and buttons on a remote achieves exactly the same thing.

How about recording onto tape vs. recording digitally. Better analogy?

Is someone lazy because they don't edit anymore with tape and a splicing kit, or is it just that times have changed and new technology has changed the possibilities that are out there.

I just don't understand what Greg's tirade is all about. So you don't like amp sims. Fine. Don't fucking use them. If others like them, what's it to you? Who gives a fuck? Times are changing. I don't like that everyone looks at their music on a screen now, but that's the way it's been for a while now.

 

[Greg_L]

How about recording onto tape vs. recording digitally. Better analogy?

Lol. What? Jesus don't bring tape into this.

 

[famous beagle]

Lol. What? Jesus don't bring tape into this.

I edited my post above. It's a very valid point.

 

[Paschalis I.]

Greg, it's ok I respect your opinion, we can't agree all the time

There are different tastes and techniques, each to his own. I believe the end-result is what matter no matter how was it was recorded.
The listener (including yourself) should not care about what gear you used to create the product (final song). Nobody cares.

I only care about the end result, which is music and music makes us feel something. If something is sounding great (composition wise and audio wise),
then it's perfect for me.

You tend to really care to what happened "behind the scenes". I prefer to care about what happens in the front, the song itself cause that's what we're aiming for.


I added my 2 cents, you added yours.
You might believe that something is true, some people are laughing at you with your perspective, some people do the same for my perspective.

There's no reason to "fight" cause perspective is different for each one. Peace, bb!

 

[Greg_L]

How about recording onto tape vs. recording digitally. Better analogy?

Is someone lazy because they don't edit anymore with tape and a splicing kit, or is it just that times have changed and new technology has changed the possibilities that are out there.

I just don't understand what Greg's tirade is all about. So you don't like amp sims. Fine. Don't fucking use them. If others like them, what's it to you? Who gives a fuck? Times are changing. I don't like that everyone looks at their music on a screen now, but that's the way it's been for a while now.

No you're right. I must be out of my fucking mind to suggest and support the notion that people record music with real instruments. Make sounds. Record sounds. What was I thinking? It's way easier and more convenient for everyone to just use sims and samples. Why learn anything at all? Why bother with the tedious minutia of placing a mic? That would be stupid. God forbid a loud sound startle someone. Just draw your notes with a mouse. It's all the same!

 

[Greg_L]

Greg, it's ok I respect your opinion, we can't agree all the time

There are different tastes and techniques, each to his own. I believe the end-result is what matter no matter how was it was recorded.

I don't. I want to believe that what I'm hearing really happened. If you can fool me, fine. But I want to believe that the sounds I'm hearing happened. Listening to music for me is no different than watching it live. People bitch and moan about backing tracks and lip syncing live all the time. It's a travesty! An insult to the collective live music experience. I don't see it being any different for recorded music. When Jimmy Page flubbed his way through his sloppy ass Heartbreaker solo, I want to believe all that dysfunctional noise came from his fingers, through his guitar, out of an amp, and into a mic. What I hear now in most home recorded music does not sound authentic at all. I'd personally rather hear less-than-great real drums over perfect precision drum programming. I'd rather hear an amp feedback than the sterile fizz of an amp sim. I'd rather hear someone figure out how to mic their kit than draw their drums with a mouse. So I shout from the rooftops to use real instruments when you can. I know not everyone can, but if you can, then do it, because they are better. You will become a better recordist, a better mixer, and eventually your mixes will blow away your old fake stuff. It's a process, and the process will make one better overall. Cutting out the hard part doesn't make anyone better. It just makes more dumb robots.

 

[Paschalis I.]

I don't. I want to believe that what I'm hearing really happened. If you can fool me, fine. But I want to believe that the sounds I'm hearing happened. Listening to music for me is no different than watching it live. People bitch and moan about backing tracks and lip syncing live all the time. It's a travesty! An insult to the collective live music experience. I don't see it being any different for recorded music. When Jimmy Page flubbed his way through his sloppy ass Heartbreaker solo, I want to believe all that dysfunctional noise came from his fingers, through his guitar, out of an amp, and into a mic. What I hear now in most home recorded music does not sound authentic at all. I'd personally rather hear less-than-great real drums over perfect precision drum programming. I'd rather hear an amp feedback than the sterile fizz of an amp sim. I'd rather hear someone figure out how to mic their kit than draw their drums with a mouse. So I shout from the rooftops to use real instruments when you can. I know not everyone can, but if you can, then do it, because they are better. You will become a better recordist, a better mixer, and eventually your mixes will blow away your old fake stuff. It's a process, and the process will make one better overall. Cutting out the hard part doesn't make anyone better. It just makes more dumb robots.

Well I can feel what you feel and I partially agree... using amp sims does not mean that the player does not exist though.

According to your Jimmy Page reference, I am sure he would sound the same using simulators. The word "same" goes for his fingers not for the amp sound.
Please do not mistake audio simulators from the "playing" simulators.

I respect your opinion and I like it somehow. But your disfavor for MIDI is confusing you in some sub-categories of this subject.

Give Jimmy Page a guitar and he will rock no matter if the guitar is connected to a real amp or a kemper.

P.S: Please reply to famous beagle about the tape thing, cause I believe he makes perfect sense and I'd like to hear your point of view.

 

[Lt. Bob]

well ........ in big studios mostly they use amps. yes some use Kempers and AxeFX but mostly the big time pros use those for live work. Just easier live to know that on your European tour you can count on a sound being what you need instead of making do with some crappy backline amp that's not what you needed.
But while some use modelers in the studio most still go with amps.

Personally I'm open minded about it ........ the modelers are getting close and I can see a day when there's really no need for an actual tube amp ..... it's coming sure as anything.
But Greg's right about this: modelers DO try to simulate a real amp ..... that's a fact. And they are getting very close to accurately simulating real amps. But I can use a real amp and it sounds like a real amp perfectly since it is one. So modelers are trying to simulate something in a complicated way that you can just use the actual thing for instead.
At this point I still prefer real amps.

Having said all that ..... for my solo gigs about 75% of the time I use a modeler into the PA so I'm certainly not closed minded about it.

And personally I do agree that the final result is what matters. If the song and recording and great then they're great regardless of how you achieved it.

 

[Greg_L]

Well I can feel what you feel and I partially agree... using amp sims does not mean that the player does not exist though.

According to your Jimmy Page reference, I am sure he would sound the same using simulators. The word "same" goes for his fingers not for the amp sound.
Please do not mistake audio simulators from the "playing" simulators.

I'm not mistaking anything. I accept that sims still require a player. But to me, the amp is a crucial part of the equation. I respect that a player is still involved, thank god for that, but it isn't the same. I don't even see how this is even debatable. A sim, a profiler, it's just imitating the real thing. The very fucking name "sim" is short for "simulator". It simulates something else. It is not, and never can be what it's simulating. Since others are throwing around shitty analogies, I'll do one too: Jump into a flight simulator and see if you go anywhere.

I respect your opinion and I like it somehow. But your disfavor for MIDI is confusing you in some sub-categories of this subject.

I'm not confused at all.

P.S: Please reply to famous beagle about the tape thing, cause I believe he makes perfect sense and I'd like to hear your point of view.

Lol. The tape thing is stupid. He's just flailing wildy because I've upset him. He's one of those guys that will disagree with me just because I'm me and he doesn't like the way I say things.

 

[Greg_L]

well ........ in big studios mostly they use amps. yes some use Kempers and AxeFX but mostly the big time pros use those for live work. Just easier live to know that on your European tour you can count on a sound being what you need instead of making do with some crappy backline amp that's not what you needed.
But while some use modelers in the studio but still go with amps.

Personally I'm open minded about it ........ the modelers are getting close and I can see a day when there's really no need for an actual tube amp ..... it's coming sure as anything.
But Greg's right about this: modelers DO try to simulate a real amp ..... that's a fact. And they are getting very close to accurately simulating real amps. But I can use a real amp and it sounds like a real amp perfectly since it is one. So modelers are trying to simulate something in a complicated way that you can just use the actual thing for instead.
At this point I still prefer real amps.

Having said all that ..... for my solo gigs about 75% of the time I use a modeler into the PA so I'm certainly not closed minded about it.

And personally I do agree that the final result is what matters. If the song and recording and great then they're great regardless of how you achieved it.

I'm just kind of flabbergasted that people would fight me on this. I say to use real amps and these butthurt lunatics come out of the woodwork like I've done something horrible.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I'm just kind of flabbergasted that people would fight me on this. I say to use real amps and these butthurt lunatics come out of the woodwork like I've done something horrible.

lol ...... that's true. They do seem to get really defensive about the whole thing.

 

[famous beagle]

No you're right. I must be out of my fucking mind to suggest and support the notion that people record music with real instruments. Make sounds. Record sounds. What was I thinking? It's way easier and more convenient for everyone to just use sims and samples. Why learn anything at all? Why bother with the tedious minutia of placing a mic? That would be stupid. God forbid a loud sound startle someone. Just draw your notes with a mouse. It's all the same!

Where do you draw the line? The world is filled with examples of "fake" instruments that have gone on to become "real" instruments in their own right.

Electric pianos were originally designed to mimic real pianos. They did a terrible job of it, and their sound became desirable on their own.

The Mellotron was one of the first "samplers." It used tape to play samples of real flutes, strings, etc. It has a sound all its own, though, and now it's a desirable vintage instrument. And there are even VSTs to emulate it --- the thing was designed to emulate something else in the first place.

MIDI is simply digital data that's converted in some way to produce a sound. It's no different in that regard to recording digitally. The "real" sound wave is captured by the mic, converted to an electric signal, converted to digital data (on digital systems), and "recorded." How is that different?

If you really want to be a purist, then you should play acoustic guitars and only do it live to people every time, because recording anything in a studio is already a perversion of "natural" sound.

I love "real" amps just as much as you, and that's always what I prefer to do. But if everyone stuck their hand in the sand the way you're doing and shouted "This is the only way to do this! Everything else is bullshit," then we wouldn't even have amplifiers in the first place, let alone multi-track recording. LOL .... How is that "real?" When's the last time you saw someone singing lead vocals, singing back up vocals, playing drums, playing 3 guitars, and playing bass all at the same time?

Both of those inventions --- amps and multi-track recordings --- were considered illegitimate at one time by many people. And ... oh yeah, so was digital recording at one point (and of course it still is by some people).

 

[Greg_L]

lol ...... that's true. They do seem to get really defensive about the whole thing.

Right? It's crazy! This is possibly the most ass-backwards illogical debate I've ever had in here. I'm suggesting people use real amps because they sound better than fake amps, and somehow that's a bad thing.

 

[Greg_L]

Where do you draw the line? The world is filled with examples of "fake" instruments that have gone on to become "real" instruments in their own right.

Electric pianos were originally designed to mimic real pianos. They did a terrible job of it, and their sound became desirable on their own.

The Mellotron was one of the first "samplers." It used tape to play samples of real flutes, strings, etc. It has a sound all its own, though, and now it's a desirable vintage instrument. And there are even VSTs to emulate it --- the thing was designed to emulate something else in the first place.

MIDI is simply digital data that's converted in some way to produce a sound. It's no different in that regard to recording digitally. The "real" sound wave is captured by the mic, converted to an electric signal, converted to digital data (on digital systems), and "recorded." How is that different?

If you really want to be a purist, then you should play acoustic guitars and only do it live to people every time, because recording anything in a studio is already a perversion of "natural" sound.

I love "real" amps just as much as you, and that's always what I prefer to do. But if everyone stuck their hand in the sand the way you're doing and shouted "This is the only way to do this! Everything else is bullshit," then we wouldn't even have amplifiers in the first place, let alone multi-track recording. LOL .... How is that "real?" When's the last time you saw someone singing lead vocals, singing back up vocals, playing drums, playing 3 guitars, and playing bass all at the same time?

Both of those inventions --- amps and multi-track recordings --- were considered illegitimate at one time by many people. And ... oh yeah, so was digital recording at one point (and of course it still is by some people).

Bitch please, don't try your twisted, tangential strawman shit on me. You're moving goalposts all over the place.

 

[Lt. Bob]

Where do you draw the line? The world is filled with examples of "fake" instruments that have gone on to become "real" instruments in their own right.

Electric pianos were originally designed to mimic real pianos. They did a terrible job of it, and their sound became desirable on their own.

The Mellotron was one of the first "samplers." It used tape to play samples of real flutes, strings, etc. It has a sound all its own, though, and now it's a desirable vintage instrument. And there are even VSTs to emulate it --- the thing was designed to emulate something else in the first place.

MIDI is simply digital data that's converted in some way to produce a sound. It's no different in that regard to recording digitally. The "real" sound wave is captured by the mic, converted to an electric signal, converted to digital data (on digital systems), and "recorded." How is that different?

If you really want to be a purist, then you should play acoustic guitars and only do it live to people every time, because recording anything in a studio is already a perversion of "natural" sound.

I love "real" amps just as much as you, and that's always what I prefer to do. But if everyone stuck their hand in the sand the way you're doing and shouted "This is the only way to do this! Everything else is bullshit," then we wouldn't even have amplifiers in the first place, let alone multi-track recording. LOL .... How is that "real?" When's the last time you saw someone singing lead vocals, singing back up vocals, playing drums, playing 3 guitars, and playing bass all at the same time?

Both of those inventions --- amps and multi-track recordings --- were considered illegitimate at one time by many people. And ... oh yeah, so was digital recording at one point (and of course it still is by some people).

good post and good points.

My sax was considered a bastard instrument that no orchestra could ever use ....... now it gets me laid and sax players can work in any style while orchestra instrumentalists are unemployed.

The times, they are a'changin' ...... that doesn't change the fact that modelers are very close but not quite there yet. Especially in the hands of musicians that don't know real amps well enough to dial in a sim.

 

[famous beagle]

Bitch please, don't try your twisted, tangential strawman shit on me. You're moving goalposts all over the place.

There's a small window of opportunity when it's possible to have a legitimate, constructive conversation with you before you lose it and write everyone off as a fuckwad. I guess it's because you really like the sound of beating your own chest (or meat?). Maybe you should mic that, run it through a cranked Marshall, and record it. Use it as a kick drum or something.

 

[Greg_L]

There's a small window of opportunity when it's possible to have a legitimate, constructive conversation with you before you lose it and write everyone off as a fuckwad. I guess it's because you really like the sound of beating your own chest (or meat?). Maybe you should mic that, run it through a cranked Marshall, and record it. Use it as a kick drum or something.

That would probably sound better than your POD.

As I've said before, if you weren't talking out of your ass solely to disgaree with me, we could have that conversation. But it is what it is.

 

[famous beagle]

good post and I thought os that earlier.
My sax was considered a bastard instrument that no orchestra could ever use ....... now it gets me laid and sax players can work in any style while orchestra instrumentalists are unemployed.

The times, they are a'changin' ...... that doesn't change the fact that modelers are very close but not quite there yet. Especially in the hands of musicians that don't know real amps well enough to dial in a sim.

That's what strikes me as funny about Gerg. If you look as most of what he says, you'd think he'd be totally pro analog. I mean ... who wants to be a pussy and record digitally with limitless options and fake plug-in compressors, EQs, and effects that emulate real hardware? Just mic that shit up, roll tape, and record motherfucker!

 

[Paschalis I.]

I'm suggesting people use real amps because they sound better than fake amps, and somehow that's a bad thing.

Actually they used to sound better. Now they are 99.9% the same. In a couple of years they will be identical.
Either you love modern technology or not, either you dislike this change or not, it's a fact that is irrelevant of opinions.

Please don't lie that's not the reason you suggest using a real amp and you know it. There are more reasons you've talked about.

 

[DM60]

I'm just kind of flabbergasted that people would fight me on this. I say to use real amps and these butthurt lunatics come out of the woodwork like I've done something horrible.

Music hasn't been real since the invented the microphone. When music was played in a room and people heard it "real". When the microphone, then recording came along, everything has been to get to that point. A guitar string on a guitar sounds like crap. It is not until it is manipulated through pickups, amps and speakers that it becomes something worth listening too. Then you have effects pedals, etc. I really don't see a difference between an amplified guitar and a sim, just there were two different technologies that got you the end state.

I am not saying you are wrong for wanting to produce your sound your way, but you are naive in thinking it is any more or less real than any other way of creating a manipulated sound. Which is different from wanting to capture a sound that is what you heard, like a live orchestra or a live band in a particular room.