how to reach the average song volume?

[Massive Master]

I'd be happy to return to the 90's... That seemed to be the tipping point of where we found a balance between "power" and "volume" --- A certain amount of additive volume and compressed dynamics (when done right) gave songs energy and tension (still does). Adding volume and reducing dynamics past that point reduces energy and decreases tension. Contrast is good. And (God help me, because I hate "standards" on so many things) if we locked -15dBRMS (rough example) as "Industry Standard Volume" along with the technology available these days as far as raw quality is concerned, I can't even imagine...

 

[Greg_L]

I just happen to have a perspective that this type of loudness mind warp that people are stuck in is killing the industry (just like every punter out there that low-balls their rate) It's bringing the industry down and killing those of us that actually make a living out of audio. If you validate it, you're part of the problem.

Good. The industry needs killing. I'm happy to be part of the problem. Get it out of the hands of nostalgic retreads. Stop trying to dictate how things get done and let things just happen. You're no better than the morons that got things loud to begin with. If someone makes a single/album that's too loud and sounds bad, word will get around and no one will buy it. And that's if anyone bought it to begin with. In the DIY world, no one sells jack shit anyway. Who cares? If you're pandering to the buying public masses, keep in mind that no one listens to whole albums anymore. The volume knob mantra is totally stupid when you have to reach again to turn it back down when the next song comes on. Loudness isn't some new trend. It's been around for over a decade. Waaaaaaaa.

 

[Greg_L]

I'd be happy to return to the 90's... That seemed to be the tipping point of where we found a balance between "power" and "volume" --- A certain amount of additive volume and compressed dynamics (when done right) gave songs energy and tension (still does). Adding volume and reducing dynamics past that point reduces energy and decreases tension. Contrast is good. And (God help me, because I hate "standards" on so many things) if we locked -15dBRMS (rough example) as "Industry Standard Volume" along with the technology available these days as far as raw quality is concerned, I can't even imagine...

I totally agree with this. I'm not for or against compression/limiting loudness. I like some, but not too much. I don't like whiny blowhards telling everyone how it should be done. The 90's are a good example, and while I generally hate the music of that era, I like the production techniques.

 

[RAMI]

I don't necessarrilly agree that the problem with a low master is that people will skip over it. The problem is that people will turn it up and then the next song is going to blow your head off.

Regardless which side of the debate you're on, saying "just turn it up" only works on paper. People listen to their Ipods while they text, run on a treadmill, jog outside, lift weights, work on their car, and a million other things that keep their hands busy. They don't wwant to keep reaching for the volume knob.

It's even worse on a stereo system. Imagine working on something while you have music blasting from the next room. A song comes on that's lower than everything else, you either have to stop what you're doing to go into the next room, or just let it play and never get to hear it. If you do go turn it up, now you''re in the next room when the next song comes on and blows your speakers up.

 

[papusnance]

RAMI, exactly !

 

[Greg_L]

I don't necessarrilly agree that the problem with a low master is that people will skip over it. The problem is that people will turn it up and then the next song is going to blow your head off.

Regardless which side of the debate you're on, saying "just turn it up" only works on paper. People listen to their Ipods while they text, run on a treadmill, jog outside, lift weights, work on their car, and a million other things that keep their hands busy. They don't wwant to keep reaching for the volume knob.

It's even worse on a stereo system. Imagine working on something while you have music blasting from the next room. A song comes on that's lower than everything else, you either have to stop what you're doing to go into the next room, or just let it play and never get to hear it. If you do go turn it up, now you''re in the next room when the next song comes on and blows your speakers up.

Lol. Word. That's always been my point exactly. Turn it up is great until you have to turn it back down again.

 

[somegeezer]

That's where you need to learn to work with the dynamics. Making everything loud enough to be audible, quiet enough not to blow the speakers, but also have range between them to differentiate the Folky acoustic guitar from the low-chuggng Metal guitars. Turning everything loud and closing that range just makes for some boring music.

 

[RAMI]

That's where you need to learn to work with the dynamics. Making everything loud enough to be audible, quiet enough not to blow the speakers, but also have range between them to differentiate the Folky acoustic guitar from the low-chuggng Metal guitars. Turning everything loud and closing that range just makes for some boring music.

You're talking about a totally different thing.

 

[ido1957]

Agreed on the iPods - the volume "knob" is non-existent so it's very annoying to have to fix volume

 

[Monkey Allen]

Why don't you just turn it up, then? Are you scared of the volume knob?

It's a sad paradox that people think this way now and if you find yourself in the same head space you can only blame yourself for being taken by the record label mooks who have pushed this loudness agenda onto you. The best thing you can do right now is forget about loudness and focus on making better sounding records.

That's fair enough...but some people starting out mix songs where even the loudest volume setting on their CD makes the song sound like a piss in the ocean

Judging by my sporadic visits to various soundclick pages and soundcloud songs as seen attached to people's sigs though, I'm lucky my ears haven't bled me to death or caused massive internal brain catastrophe. So maybe most people aren't really having that much trouble pointing the old limiter where the sun'll never shine again.

Oh the volume

Great stuff

 

[Greg_L]

That's fair enough...but some people starting out mix songs where even the loudest volume setting on their CD makes the song sound like a piss in the ocean

Judging by my sporadic visits to various soundclick pages and soundcloud songs as seen attached to people's sigs though, I'm lucky my ears haven't bled me to death or caused massive internal brain catastrophe. So maybe most people aren't really having that much trouble pointing the old limiter where the sun'll never shine again.

Oh the volume

Great stuff

Just turn it down. That's what the volume knob is for.

 

[grimtraveller]

That's where you need to learn to work with the dynamics. Making everything loud enough to be audible, quiet enough not to blow the speakers, but also have range between them to differentiate the Folky acoustic guitar from the low-chuggng Metal guitars. Turning everything loud and closing that range just makes for some boring music.

You're talking about a totally different thing.

This is why this debate often gets so fractious and confusing. Because quite often, both 'sides' are arguing different points but fight because they feel they're discussing the same point. It's a bit like the argument about the human rights act. People get all up in arms about it but what they confuse it with is civil rights. Different argument.
Back in the 70s and early 80s when I started taping records, I always recorded as loud as I possibly could because records were recorded and mastered at different levels. I did it for precisely the reason RAMI gives - when on a train, developing pictures or washing up with running water, doing housework with house noises, I wanted every song at a similar volume. It's not laziness to not want to adjust the volume every time a different song is on. Even on quiet songs or songs with quiet passages I want them loud. It doesn't destroy the balance of the song. Because even with a volume control, I'd turn it up anyway. The other reason I used to record loud was that I then didn't have to turn the walkman up so loud, thus preserving battery power !
This seems to be different to the "limit the dynamic range" argument that so often crops up.

 

[Ninja_Drummer]

Ooooh boy, here begins another loudness war, seriously, you people need to stop startin up these pointless threads and do some research on the forum or even the web in general for that matter. There is just soooooooooooo much info. regarding this conundrum.

Though I can partially agree to most everyone's argument posted here, I find that while loudness is not really a factor in my world, the fact that transitioning from one song to another that is super fucking loud is really annoying.

I can relate this to how I transition to a 90's hard rock radio station to a pop/hip hop/ station. BIG DIFFERENCE, and it usually ends with Lady Gaga or Justin Bieber blaring in my speakers and turning every head and shoulder.

While I personally don't like having my mixes up to par with commercial mixes, I certainly don't like to have a large gap in volume either.

 

[RAMI]

seriously, you people need to stop startin up these pointless threads and do some research on the forum or even the web in general for that matter. .

Right.

Then you went on to give your opinion on the subject just like everyone else in this thread. That's peculiar.

 

[Ninja_Drummer]

Right.

Then you went on to give your opinion on the subject just like everyone else in this thread. That's peculiar.

Nothing wrong with merely stating an opinion. Not like I was hazing on anyone, if anything, I was agreeing to them all collectively.

 

[Mo Facta]

Good. The industry needs killing. I'm happy to be part of the problem. Get it out of the hands of nostalgic retreads. Stop trying to dictate how things get done and let things just happen. You're no better than the morons that got things loud to begin with. If someone makes a single/album that's too loud and sounds bad, word will get around and no one will buy it. And that's if anyone bought it to begin with. In the DIY world, no one sells jack shit anyway. Who cares? If you're pandering to the buying public masses, keep in mind that no one listens to whole albums anymore. The volume knob mantra is totally stupid when you have to reach again to turn it back down when the next song comes on. Loudness isn't some new trend. It's been around for over a decade. Waaaaaaaa.

Yeah, well, nice sidestep. I noticed no one answered my question about actually making a living in audio. If you did you would actually understand my concern on these matters. It's boils down to the ignorance of the art. There's no music appreciation any more and nor is there an appreciation for sonics and the emotions that carry them. All there's left is, "Hey, commercial CDs are louder than my recordings, what gives?" It's pathetic and a reason why my love for music is waning.

But whatever. Be an enabler.

Cheers

 

[Greg_L]

I noticed no one answered my question about actually making a living in audio.

It doesn't matter. You don't have to be a professional chef to know when something tastes bad. You gotta be mentally challenged to choose a career in audio anyway. You're whole livelihood is at the mercy of moronic musicians. Squash those mixes, mo sucka.

 

[miroslav]

There's no music appreciation any more and nor is there an appreciation for sonics and the emotions that carry them. All there's left is, "Hey, commercial CDs are louder than my recordings, what gives?" It's pathetic and a reason why my love for music is waning.

That may be true...but chastising people for wanting their stuff to be a certain "competitive" loudness doesn't really fix anything, because that is then imposing your idea of how music should be.

Mind you...I'm all for sonics and dynamics, and as I already said, I try to go get my stuff within the "range" of commercial loudness, but I take steps to not trash my sonics/dynamics and I have a cutoff point where it's loud enough and no need to nuke it.
However, there is a rapidly growing segment that likes/wants their music trashy, slammed and loud, and that's how they record it and listen to it....so endlessly beating on the drum about "loudness and dynamics" is pointless.

Sometimes you have to accept the fact that the state of the art has changed and it's no longer going in the exact direction you want it to.....

 

[Greg_L]

Lol @ calling it art

 

[miroslav]

It's just an expression..."state-of-the-art"....it applies to anything, not just *art*.