How To Mix Drums?

[kcearl]

jesus you're argumentative...you could've let the bone go when greg said he'd had enough of the thread but your ego wouldn't let you would it?

I've had a taste of your posting war of attrition before...dude its dull, give it up

"and getting something new out there as a finished product and not just as some MP3 clinic/SoundClick wet dream"

wtf is that meant to mean?


you have an overgrown sense of your own importance..what an arse..

 

[kcearl]

Thing is...I'm NOT defending those mixes. Rather, I was defending the "why is your snare panned off-center"...and..."your snare is not in phase" viewpoints from a general perspective (as I don't see that a snare needs to be in the center).
But you found a target, and so you just keep hitting at it over and over, as though you're really saying anything meaningful by repeating "ass" and "shit" over and over again…which IMO is your typical MP3 forum etiquette found on many websites.
A bunch of guys trying to impress each other…or dis each other….

Nothing personal to all the guys looking for honest opinions in the MP3 clinic...but I don't give a rats ass about that kind of stuff or people's SoundClick pages where they demonstrates their ability to cover a bunch of old tunes (regardless how well they cover them.)

For me...it's about songwriting...originals...and getting something new out there as a finished product and not just as some MP3 clinic/SoundClick wet dream… and that means doing something different that doesn't follow any expected cookie-cutter paths or predictable sounding mix paths.

YMMV…..

Had your approach in this discussion been more of a respectful creative critique…we might have spoken differently about some of these things.
But let’s face it…from your first post to me…your goal was to try and ridicule me…while simultaneously lifting yourself to some point of great expertise and wisdom.
You have your fans, obviously…but I didn’t hear anything in your mixes particularly outstanding…rather they are cluttered sounding as I already said…and rather “same-as” sounding. There is no originality in your sound…it’s very canned…regardless if your Snare has lots of POP.

I’m not going for stuff that just gets lost in a sea of other “same-as” sounding music…and to do that, you sometimes have to take risks and approach things from a non-conformist position…
…or in your case…not.

just got to quote this elitist crap in case you come to your senses and try to delete it

can wait to hear your "cutting edge, experimental, pushing the boundaries, thank gawd for the beatles, non conformist" tracks.....my life has been dull up to now

 

[miroslav]

kcearl...you rarely have anything significant to say around here. You just like to butt-in and make little "comments" on threads.
You obviously enjoy playing your class-clown role around here, which is what you seem to do best...
…so you of all people should be able to understand the wet dream comment.

The reason I'm not letting it go is because Greg hasn't let it go either...he's come back time and time again to take one more jab at me.
My posts are responses to his posts....it's a two way street.

 

[noisewreck]

Question: Any chance you could describe your own routing process, to achieve these grouped busses? You see, I'm just beginning to get the hang of using sends. Any guidance I can get at this stage would be most appreciated.

Thanks

Dr. V

I'll see if I can take some screenshots of a Cubase project for you in a couple of days. Although I did read that you are using FL Studio, the concepts should be similar. Just to make sure that there are no confusions, we are NOT talking about sends.

In Cubase you can set the output of a track to either a main bus or group channel (if you've already setup a group channel). So, a typical setup might be something like this:

909Kick, AccousticKick, DistortedKick -> Kick Group -> Drum Group
Snare1, Snare2, Snare3 -> Snare Group -> Drum Group
Closed HiHat, Slightly open Hihat, Open Hihat, Pedal -> HiHat Group -> Drum Group
Cymbals -> Drum Group
High Tom, Mid Tom, Low Tom ->Tom Group -> Drum Group

etc.

Now, when it comes to sends, I might have a couple of reverbs and delays setup and send various amounts from the individual drums, and maybe from the overall Drum Group.

Hope this helps.

 

[miroslav]

noisewreck...besides setting up/sequencing the drums in Cubase...which sounds are you actually using for the drums?
Is it a particular library brand/type...etc?

I haven't done drum maps in Cubase in a long time now...but I use to get into it pretty heavy back in the Cubase/Atari days.
Back then I would trigger the samples from my EMU Pro-Cussion rack module...which IMO has some nice drum/percusison sounds.
I still have the Pro-cusison module in the rack...but like my Akai S1000...I haven't been using it all that much.

I've had some thought on getting back to doing some "electronic" music at some point...but might not be for awhile.

 

[Joza]

I'll see if I can take some screenshots of a Cubase project for you in a couple of days. Although I did read that you are using FL Studio, the concepts should be similar. Just to make sure that there are no confusions, we are NOT talking about sends.

In Cubase you can set the output of a track to either a main bus or group channel (if you've already setup a group channel). So, a typical setup might be something like this:

909Kick, AccousticKick, DistortedKick -> Kick Group -> Drum Group
Snare1, Snare2, Snare3 -> Snare Group -> Drum Group
Closed HiHat, Slightly open Hihat, Open Hihat, Pedal -> HiHat Group -> Drum Group
Cymbals -> Drum Group
High Tom, Mid Tom, Low Tom ->Tom Group -> Drum Group

etc.

Now, when it comes to sends, I might have a couple of reverbs and delays setup and send various amounts from the individual drums, and maybe from the overall Drum Group.

Hope this helps.

Hmm.. If you are using that kind of grouping, do you always have virtual instrument for the drums (in which case having for example hihats on different channels is easy) or do you cut the recorded track and move the parts on different tracks one hit at a time?

EDIT: Ok the OP was talking about VST:s so propably you too.

 

[kcearl]

kcearl...you rarely have anything significant to say around here. You just like to butt-in and make little "comments" on threads.
You obviously enjoy playing your class-clown role around here, which is what you seem to do best...
…so you of all people should be able to understand the wet dream comment.

The reason I'm not letting it go is because Greg hasn't let it go either...he's come back time and time again to take one more jab at me.
My posts are responses to his posts....it's a two way street.

I have plenty to say around here..I don't spend all my time having fun in the cave like some...or being a condescending prick in the audio forums like others..nudge nudge

his comments were directed at you..your comments were directed at all who put their stuff up in the mp3 clinic


yeah I'm the class clown...Mister "I don't play buy the rules groundbreaker"

your drums sucked so suddenly you were breaking the mould..ha effing hahahaha

you're an arse..and even calling you that got me some rep so I'm not the only one who thinks so dude


pfft

 

[noisewreck]

I'd really, really like to know how you guys come up with a plan, regarding compression and reverb, etc.

When to and when not to compress/reverb... Hell, I anticipate you telling me to "use my ears" and I'd definitely agree, however I'm looking for a starting point, which is why I'm interested in rules of thumb.

I'm not even 100% sure what a snare should sound like, as in my VST kit, they all sound different and I've never actually played a drum kit. All I know is that there is a bass drum at the bottom and some cymbals at the top.

What are these 'overheads' you've been talking about? Are overheads slang for cymbals? Or is it a mic hanging from the ceiling?

V

Hmm, loaded question eh?

OK, I'll take a jab at the compress/reverb/eq portion of this by taking a somewhat not-so-imaginary scenario and go through the thought process. Please again, keep in mind that I am going to speak strictly from electronic drums/nothing is mic'd point of view, so I am playing with either the samples that I've got, or have synthesized some drum hits.

Compression... Because I am working with electronic drums compression is never used to correct dynamic issues, to "level" stuff and otherwise. Those kinds of issues are much more easily handled at the MIDI level, using velocity and other means, with far more control and better musical results. Compression is normally used as a soundshaping tool for me. For example I might have a snare sample that has a nice punch to it, but not enough sustain. In a situation like this, I'll likely use two copies of the same snare, on two separate tracks, and compress the second one with fast attack/release to clamp down on the transient, thus bringing up the tail, then mix it to taste with the unaffected snare. (Read up on parallel compression).

Same thing with EQ. Earlier I had given an example of using several layers to come up with a composite kick sound. Say I have my low end covered by a 909 type hit, but I want to add some snap/click to it. I might take an acoustic kick, EQ the bottom end out of it, and layer it on top of the 909 which is providing the bottom end.

Another need for EQ might be to get rid of unwanted resonances in a given drum, but I tend to do this more as a pre-processing, sample prep/sound design process.

The rest of the EQ and compression, reverb will be highly dependent on the mix overall, and deciding where everything fits in the overall arrangement. Sometimes choosing the right sounds to begin with will make EQ unnecessary, which I suppose is similar to using the right mic / right instrument / right signal path process at the tracking stage for traditional recording process.

 

[noisewreck]

Hmm.. If you are using that kind of grouping, do you always have virtual instrument for the drums (in which case having for example hihats on different channels is easy) or do you cut the recorded track and move the parts on different tracks one hit at a time?

EDIT: Ok the OP was talking about VST:s so propably you too.

Yes, we're strictly talkin samples here. As to whether I use a VST (which in my case is usually Battery) or straight audio tracks, it depends. Sometimes I find it easy to just setup audio tracks, and drag individual samples to them, other times it makes more sense to use Battery. In any case, the end result is the same.

 

[suprstar]

909Kick, AccousticKick, DistortedKick -> Kick Group -> Drum Group
Snare1, Snare2, Snare3 -> Snare Group -> Drum Group
Closed HiHat, Slightly open Hihat, Open Hihat, Pedal -> HiHat Group -> Drum Group
Cymbals -> Drum Group
High Tom, Mid Tom, Low Tom ->Tom Group -> Drum Group

Now, when it comes to sends, I might have a couple of reverbs and delays setup and send various amounts from the individual drums, and maybe from the overall Drum Group.

Wow man, that's the most organized drum grouping I've ever heard of in any studio or live venue! I'm using v-drums too, to record midi, then run it thru ezdrummer. So I have 8 drum tracks going to a 'Drums' group and that's it..

 

[noisewreck]

noisewreck...besides setting up/sequencing the drums in Cubase...which sounds are you actually using for the drums?
Is it a particular library brand/type...etc?

I haven't done drum maps in Cubase in a long time now...but I use to get into it pretty heavy back in the Cubase/Atari days.
Back then I would trigger the samples from my EMU Pro-Cussion rack module...which IMO has some nice drum/percusison sounds.
I still have the Pro-cusison module in the rack...but like my Akai S1000...I haven't been using it all that much.

I've had some thought on getting back to doing some "electronic" music at some point...but might not be for awhile.

The only library I've purchased is the Tonehammer Epic Toms for Kontakt for some cinematic tom ensemble stuff. It's awesome.

As for the rest of the drums, it depends. At times I use some of the kits that came with Battery (there is a lot of cool stuff there), but more often than that it's a combination of a bunch of free samples that I've downloaded from the web, or hits that I've nicked from actual recordings and things that I've got from CDs that come with magazines such as Computer Music, Future Music, Music Tech, etc.

Also, let's not forget about stuff that I've just simply synthesized either using something like Waldorf Attack! (yeah, still have that ), my Kurzweil K2600, FM7/8 and especially Reaktor.

 

[miroslav]

you're an arse..and even calling you that got me some rep so I'm not the only one who thinks so dude

But that's all you got...

I think you can trade in those rep points down at Guitar Center.
You need like 3 million for a set of strings...so you're almost there.

PS
I didn't comment to everyone in the MP3 clinic anything at all.
I said...nothing personal to the guys who are looking for honest opinons.
I was talking to the ones who use the MP3 clinic and places like SoundClick as their own personal ego trip....and I said I personally didn't buy into that wet dream approach.

But as I recall from the last time you and I had some forum exchnages...you have a language comprehension problem...

 

[noisewreck]

What a way to ruin an otherwise good thread/topic

 

[Greg_L]

Thing is...I'm NOT defending those mixes. Rather, I was defending the "why is your snare panned off-center"...and..."your snare is not in phase" viewpoints from a general perspective (as I don't see that a snare needs to be in the center).
But you found a target, and so you just keep hitting at it over and over, as though you're really saying anything meaningful by repeating "ass" and "shit" over and over again…which IMO is your typical MP3 forum etiquette found on many websites.
A bunch of guys trying to impress each other…or dis each other….

Nothing personal to all the guys looking for honest opinions in the MP3 clinic...but I don't give a rats ass about that kind of stuff or people's SoundClick pages where they demonstrates their ability to cover a bunch of old tunes (regardless how well they cover them.)

For me...it's about songwriting...originals...and getting something new out there as a finished product and not just as some MP3 clinic/SoundClick wet dream… and that means doing something different that doesn't follow any expected cookie-cutter paths or predictable sounding mix paths.

YMMV…..

Had your approach in this discussion been more of a respectful creative critique…we might have spoken differently about some of these things.
But let’s face it…from your first post to me…your goal was to try and ridicule me…while simultaneously lifting yourself to some point of great expertise and wisdom.
You have your fans, obviously…but I didn’t hear anything in your mixes particularly outstanding…rather they are cluttered sounding as I already said…and rather “same-as” sounding. There is no originality in your sound…it’s very canned…regardless if your Snare has lots of POP.

I’m not going for stuff that just gets lost in a sea of other “same-as” sounding music…and to do that, you sometimes have to take risks and approach things from a non-conformist position…
…or in your case…not.

Maybe if you listened to people's opinions a little more, and your own ego a little less, your drums wouldn't sound so fucking stupid. Don't hide behind your faux "I'm different" card. You're not. You're just another dumbassed shmoe that thinks he's onto somethin new. Newsflash dummy: lop-sided and poor sounding drums were popular in the early 60's. Oops, you're a little late to the party. Thing is, they didn't know any better. You should.

Seriously dude, you are a hack.

 

[miroslav]

So after you dumped on me for two pages and then in the end tried to make it all better by saying the rest of my stuff sounds real good except for my drums...
...now I'm just a dumb-assed shmoe and a hack.

Like I said...from your first post your goal was just to ridicule me because of differences in opinion about minimalist drum miking...there was nothing creative in your critiques at all...just rudeness...which speaks for itself.

You're the one with the big forum ego in need of forum approval and you got a few true dumbasses like kcearl riding your coattails...as he rarely has an original opinion about audio techniques and chooses instead to jump in and just stir the fires when it pleases him.
But it's OK....and thanks for the negative rep points...I have returned you the favor. I guess in the end it really wasn't about any audio critiques, but more about a cheap personal attack.

I'll give you a heads up when my CD is ready...

 

[Dr. Varney]

But that's all you got...

I think you can trade in those rep points down at Guitar Center.
You need like 3 million for a set of strings...so you're almost there.

PS
I didn't comment to everyone in the MP3 clinic anything at all.
I said...nothing personal to the guys who are looking for honest opinons.
I was talking to the ones who use the MP3 clinic and places like SoundClick as their own personal ego trip....and I said I personally didn't buy into that wet dream approach.

But as I recall from the last time you and I had some forum exchnages...you have a language comprehension problem...

Shut up, please. Thanks for your earlier comments, but you are now clogging up this thread with a slanging match and it's boring.

And you, you stupid clown person. Shit stirrer. You can sling yer hook as well.

Blimey, I could get into this... It's funny No! Must stay strong....

 

[miroslav]

Sorry Dr. Varney

I'm sure you see that it takes at least two for an argument.
And then you have others who jump in and just flame things even more.

I would have gladly stopped back on page 2...if the posts didn't keep coming my way.
I won't feed this argument any more...regardless of what anyone says to me here in this thread.

You are right...lets get back to the original topic.

Again...sorry...for my part.

 

[Dr. Varney]

Hmm, loaded question eh?

OK, I'll take a jab at the compress/reverb/eq portion of this by taking a somewhat not-so-imaginary scenario and go through the thought process. Please again, keep in mind that I am going to speak strictly from electronic drums/nothing is mic'd point of view, so I am playing with either the samples that I've got, or have synthesized some drum hits.

Compression... Because I am working with electronic drums compression is never used to correct dynamic issues, to "level" stuff and otherwise. Those kinds of issues are much more easily handled at the MIDI level, using velocity and other means, with far more control and better musical results. Compression is normally used as a soundshaping tool for me. For example I might have a snare sample that has a nice punch to it, but not enough sustain. In a situation like this, I'll likely use two copies of the same snare, on two separate tracks, and compress the second one with fast attack/release to clamp down on the transient, thus bringing up the tail, then mix it to taste with the unaffected snare. (Read up on parallel compression).

Same thing with EQ. Earlier I had given an example of using several layers to come up with a composite kick sound. Say I have my low end covered by a 909 type hit, but I want to add some snap/click to it. I might take an acoustic kick, EQ the bottom end out of it, and layer it on top of the 909 which is providing the bottom end.

Another need for EQ might be to get rid of unwanted resonances in a given drum, but I tend to do this more as a pre-processing, sample prep/sound design process.

The rest of the EQ and compression, reverb will be highly dependent on the mix overall, and deciding where everything fits in the overall arrangement. Sometimes choosing the right sounds to begin with will make EQ unnecessary, which I suppose is similar to using the right mic / right instrument / right signal path process at the tracking stage for traditional recording process.

Thanks... That's worth knowing, cos, TBH, I've been using compression to "level" stuff. I'm probably going overkill with the effects, just to get a clear sound.

Regards

Dr. V

 

[Dr. Varney]

Sorry Dr. Varney

I'm sure you see that it takes at least two for an argument.
And then you have others who jump in and just flame things even more.

I would have gladly stopped back on page 2...if the posts didn't keep coming my way.
I won't feed this argument any more...regardless of what anyone says to me here in this thread.

You are right...lets get back to the original topic.

Again...sorry...for my part.

I was only joking... I actually know what it's like, to get heated in a forum and I know it's hard to leave alone when you feel insulted. It's taken me a long time to grow a harder skin but no-one is perfect. Shit happens. I'm sure it'll blow over.

Dr. V

 

[Greg_L]

So after you dumped on me for two pages and then in the end tried to make it all better by saying the rest of my stuff sounds real good except for my drums...
...now I'm just a dumb-assed shmoe and a hack.

Like I said...from your first post your goal was just to ridicule me because of differences in opinion about minimalist drum miking...there was nothing creative in your critiques at all...just rudeness...which speaks for itself.

You're the one with the big forum ego in need of forum approval and you got a few true dumbasses like kcearl riding your coattails...as he rarely has an original opinion about audio techniques and chooses instead to jump in and just stir the fires when it pleases him.
But it's OK....and thanks for the negative rep points...I have returned you the favor. I guess in the end it really wasn't about any audio critiques, but more about a cheap personal attack.

I'll give you a heads up when my CD is ready...

No dude, re-read the thread. It started out fine. I voiced an opinion, and it's right. You got overly defensive and showed your ass really quick. Really quick. from there, I knew what I was dealing with and acted accordingly. This isn't my first go-round with some blowhard on the internet. People like you are transparent.