G
Greg_L
Banned
Lol. No need to get get sandy, dude. I told you what was wrong. You refuse to hear it. No biggee. My ears work fine. Soft rock on with your out of phase self. 
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I'm not getting "sandy"...rather just trying to discuss minimalist miking on kits… 
…but you just keep going back to the same thing.
And to be fair…I went over to the MP3 clinic to hear your stuff and see where your thoughts stem from about drums...so I checked out the “She-Wolf” tune (first one I came across).
Putting all else aside in the song and the mix, and just listening to the drums…
…I really wasn’t impressed with their sound.
Yeah, the Snare is “up the middle”…but it sounds rather flat, there is no meat/depth to it, and I can’t hear ANY Kick in that mix at all…or any other drum for that matter.
It’s all just Snare and cymbals.
And AFA the cymbals go…they’re all over the mix…almost annoyingly at times.
And NO…I’m not just saying that to “get back at you”…rather that’s my honest opinion and I figured I was entailed to make it just as you were.
…but you just keep going back to the same thing.
And to be fair…I went over to the MP3 clinic to hear your stuff and see where your thoughts stem from about drums...so I checked out the “She-Wolf” tune (first one I came across).
Putting all else aside in the song and the mix, and just listening to the drums…
…I really wasn’t impressed with their sound.
Yeah, the Snare is “up the middle”…but it sounds rather flat, there is no meat/depth to it, and I can’t hear ANY Kick in that mix at all…or any other drum for that matter.
It’s all just Snare and cymbals.
And AFA the cymbals go…they’re all over the mix…almost annoyingly at times.
And NO…I’m not just saying that to “get back at you”…rather that’s my honest opinion and I figured I was entailed to make it just as you were.
G
Greg_L
Banned
I'm not getting "sandy"...rather just trying to discuss minimalist miking on kits…
…but you just keep going back to the same thing.
And to be fair…I went over to the MP3 clinic to hear your stuff and see where your thoughts stem from about drums...so I checked out the “She-Wolf” tune (first one I came across).
Putting all else aside in the song and the mix, and just listening to the drums…
…I really wasn’t impressed with their sound.
Yeah, the Snare is “up the middle”…but it sounds rather flat, there is no meat/depth to it, and I can’t hear ANY Kick in that mix at all…or any other drum for that matter.
It’s all just Snare and cymbals.
And AFA the cymbals go…they’re all over the mix…almost annoyingly at times.
And NO…I’m not just saying that to “get back at you”…rather that’s my honest opinion and I figured I was entailed to make it just as you were.
I agree. I hate that mix. I've totally redone it since then. I just never put up the new version.
G
Greg_L
Banned
See? Unlike you, I can tell when my stuff goes bad, and I fix it.
M
mikeeb
Whats the best RAP MIC??!
Hi guys I was just wondering what is the best mic for rapping? Just kidding. I usually use 2 OHs mic the kick and an SM57 on the snare. But im pretty awful at all this so you might just want to do the opposite of what I just told you.
dobro
Well-known member
See? Unlike you, I can tell when my stuff goes bad, and I fix it.
A hit! A palpable hit!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
See? Unlike you, I can tell when my stuff goes bad, and I fix it.
No...I was quite clear (several times in this thread) that the tracks you listened to on my website were at least two-year old rough mixes...which means they were unfinished and needed work.
I never said any different.
But you just went on and on criticizing them, and something about drums being "out of phase"...when all the time you were trying to say that my Snare wasn't panned up the middle.
If I post up something in the MP3 clinic for critiques as a work in progress...I'll be happy to hear opinions.
So when you put up the redone "She-Wolf"...I'll give it another listen.
G
Greg_L
Banned
It isn't the panning of your snare that makes it out of phase. Just so you know.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Whatever...but I'm telling you it's NOT out of phase!
Had you said that about the Kick...I might have given it to you, because as I said...I spot-mike the Kick from the inside, and on those rough tracks I might not have flipped it yet in the DAW mix.
Had you said that about the Kick...I might have given it to you, because as I said...I spot-mike the Kick from the inside, and on those rough tracks I might not have flipped it yet in the DAW mix.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Pan and phase are two different entities. Just so you know. An out of phase snare in the overheads can sound off-center though. Just so you know. Read up on stereo-miking, phase, and how it affects sound sources and then listen to what you have in those clips. Until then, I'm done with this thread. Happy reading!
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Thanks for the Recording 101 tips...but I don't need that lesson.
(Who's being snobby now... )
I know what I tracked and how I tracked it...and the Snare is NOT out of phase.
You're hearing something else...what, I dunno...
(Who's being snobby now...
)I know what I tracked and how I tracked it...and the Snare is NOT out of phase.
You're hearing something else...what, I dunno...
dobro
Well-known member
There's only one way to debate this stuff - post it. I went and listened to 'Hold On'. I don't know if the snare out of phase or not, but it sounds dead and weird. A snare should snap. The snare on Hold On doesn't snap.
dobro
Well-known member
Similar on I Once Was. Why'd you pan the snare right slightly? To balance what?
Dr. Varney
Pimp
Very interesting debate... One which I could learn from.
Just my ten-penneth worth, but I wouldn't regard it as 'snobbish' to prefer a traditional approach; I think the word 'purist' would be more apt.
I enjoy live music and from what we learn from seeing to live music, the drum kit's usually in the middle, occupying a space of it's own - usually at the back. Therefore, to me, it makes 'stereo-field sense' to put the drum-kit in one place, with a just a little panning to seperate the bits within that space. It helps for me to view stereo placement somewhat visually.
That said, I want to use my stereo-field to express something specific. For instance, jumping right out of the picture at you, I've got one kick-drum, treated with heavy reverb + overdrive, to express the sound of a gunshot, echoing around the stage - which I want panning left to right and then back again; achieved with an additional phaser. This makes sense but what also makes sense is that there is nothing wrong with experimentation or breaking convention - once you can assemble a good mix in conventional terms. I'm still at that learning stage and want to appeal to an audience who are used to listening to live music.
Besides, the music I am writing will be used in a musical. There's a lot going on, on stage, in terms of voices coming from all directions and other sound effects - so I want to keep the music itself reasonably centered, in order to avoid inordinate stereo complication in the scene. That might not be the case with future instrumental projects...
Just an aside - as a watch collector, we call any desirable added kit on a timepiece - a complication. It's not a derogatory term or undesirable to have complex music (or a complicated watch) but sometimes simplicity is needed. I like to use the stereo field to express something - not always as a sonic playground, just because I can.
The obsession with panning merely distracts from my original question, however. There's no need to multitrack my drums, just to widen them out because panning is offered in each instrument's channel settings. I was suffering some indecision about FXing (namely reverbing) my drums together or seperately - and for the latter, I'd definitely need to split the kit, trackwise. Which reminds me, although the discussion has been interesting and helpful to read, I'm not micing anything; I'm using VSTs.
Regards
Dr. V
Just my ten-penneth worth, but I wouldn't regard it as 'snobbish' to prefer a traditional approach; I think the word 'purist' would be more apt.
I enjoy live music and from what we learn from seeing to live music, the drum kit's usually in the middle, occupying a space of it's own - usually at the back. Therefore, to me, it makes 'stereo-field sense' to put the drum-kit in one place, with a just a little panning to seperate the bits within that space. It helps for me to view stereo placement somewhat visually.
That said, I want to use my stereo-field to express something specific. For instance, jumping right out of the picture at you, I've got one kick-drum, treated with heavy reverb + overdrive, to express the sound of a gunshot, echoing around the stage - which I want panning left to right and then back again; achieved with an additional phaser. This makes sense but what also makes sense is that there is nothing wrong with experimentation or breaking convention - once you can assemble a good mix in conventional terms. I'm still at that learning stage and want to appeal to an audience who are used to listening to live music.
Besides, the music I am writing will be used in a musical. There's a lot going on, on stage, in terms of voices coming from all directions and other sound effects - so I want to keep the music itself reasonably centered, in order to avoid inordinate stereo complication in the scene. That might not be the case with future instrumental projects...
Just an aside - as a watch collector, we call any desirable added kit on a timepiece - a complication. It's not a derogatory term or undesirable to have complex music (or a complicated watch) but sometimes simplicity is needed. I like to use the stereo field to express something - not always as a sonic playground, just because I can.
The obsession with panning merely distracts from my original question, however. There's no need to multitrack my drums, just to widen them out because panning is offered in each instrument's channel settings. I was suffering some indecision about FXing (namely reverbing) my drums together or seperately - and for the latter, I'd definitely need to split the kit, trackwise. Which reminds me, although the discussion has been interesting and helpful to read, I'm not micing anything; I'm using VSTs.
Regards
Dr. V
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noisewreck
New member
Yes Dr. Varney, as you have observed, most of the people on this forum automatically assume that things are mic'd and tracked in the traditional sense of recording music. Most scoff at the idea of electronic drums and will tell you that synths and samplers aren't real instruments
Here's another perspective from someone who doesn't mic anything
When it comes to electronic drums (whether sampled or synthesized) the idea of overheads, spot mics, their placement, phase relationships, etc go out the window. Obviously.
My approach to doing electronic drums is to do whatever gives me the most flexibility and control. Due to the nature of this it is not uncommon to use more than one track for a specific instrument, for example snares.
It is usual for me to have 3-4 different snares. One will be the main snare, something perhaps rather punchy, with a lot of low-mids. This will be on its own track. Then I may have a couple of weaker snares for ghost hits and such, these will be on their own track. This allows me to control the relative levels between the main hits and the ghost hits, and apply different EQ and compression to them, maybe play around with reverb (or not). Then I'll route them all to a "Snare" buss so I can control the overall snare level relative to the rest of the drums.
The same may be true for the hats, where closed hats will be on their own track, and open hats will be on their own, then bussed to a "Hat" bus.
Then I'll have overall "Drum" bus where all the drums will be routed to, to allow for overall drum level adjustment, pehaps applying an overall compression to the drums as a whole, etc.
Since I am dealing with decidedly electronic drums, "natural" sound is not really the objective, which in a way allows for more freedom to experiment with. It is not uncommon for me to layer several "Kicks" together to achieve one composite sound, where different elements contribute to different aspects of the overall kick sound for example.
So, to summarize, go for the setup that gives you the most flexibility.
Here's another perspective from someone who doesn't mic anything
When it comes to electronic drums (whether sampled or synthesized) the idea of overheads, spot mics, their placement, phase relationships, etc go out the window. Obviously.
My approach to doing electronic drums is to do whatever gives me the most flexibility and control. Due to the nature of this it is not uncommon to use more than one track for a specific instrument, for example snares.
It is usual for me to have 3-4 different snares. One will be the main snare, something perhaps rather punchy, with a lot of low-mids. This will be on its own track. Then I may have a couple of weaker snares for ghost hits and such, these will be on their own track. This allows me to control the relative levels between the main hits and the ghost hits, and apply different EQ and compression to them, maybe play around with reverb (or not). Then I'll route them all to a "Snare" buss so I can control the overall snare level relative to the rest of the drums.
The same may be true for the hats, where closed hats will be on their own track, and open hats will be on their own, then bussed to a "Hat" bus.
Then I'll have overall "Drum" bus where all the drums will be routed to, to allow for overall drum level adjustment, pehaps applying an overall compression to the drums as a whole, etc.
Since I am dealing with decidedly electronic drums, "natural" sound is not really the objective, which in a way allows for more freedom to experiment with. It is not uncommon for me to layer several "Kicks" together to achieve one composite sound, where different elements contribute to different aspects of the overall kick sound for example.
So, to summarize, go for the setup that gives you the most flexibility.
Dr. Varney
Pimp
Thank you, Noisewreck. That all makes perfect sense. Perhaps the most inspirational post yet. Made me think of a few things, I haven't yet considered.
Cheers
Dr. V
Cheers
Dr. V
Dr. Varney
Pimp
Question: Any chance you could describe your own routing process, to achieve these grouped busses? You see, I'm just beginning to get the hang of using sends. Any guidance I can get at this stage would be most appreciated.
Thanks
Dr. V
Thanks
Dr. V
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Really...?
I'll make a note of that.
There are some unbelievably preconceived notions about how a drum kit should sound.....
It's a KIT...not just a Kick and Snare.
Yeah...the drummer maybe doesn't hit the far floor tom as much as the snare...but if you take the kit as a whole...it's perfectly centered.
I don't see that Kick and Snare must be in the middle of the mix…they are NOT lead instruments, nor can they BOTH be in the middle of the mix if you mic with a stereo pair.
If you do individual mics and then pan everything where you feel like...then fine, put all the drums in the middle of the mix….but it’s no longer a kit.
As a comparison...
Greg's snare on "She-Wolf" *snaps*...and yet, IMHO, sounds flat as a pancake, there’s is no body/depth to it…just POP….and curiously, that song is now no longer on his SoundClick page…along with some of his other original offerings…???
When I click on his links in the MP3 clinic…I get errors…”sorry, song doesn’t exist”.
When my drummer and I were recording these tracks...we considered a few snares, and while I thought about using a metal snare on some tracks...the drummer felt the beefier wood snare was more unique and better sounding within the context of the songs…and it also got away from the "same-old" snare sounds you usually hear….the big POP snare sounds or the somewhat overused hollow/metallic “Alt Rock” snare sounds.
I agreed with my drummer, and when listened to as a full bandwidth recording on a full bandwidth stereo system…the fuller/beefier sound of the snare and the placement of the kit works perfectly….
…but then, I don’t really bother to mix for MP3s as my focus isn’t the MP3 clinic.
I have three sound systems in my studio…two monitoring systems and one large Hi-Fi system…that’s what I use to judge my mixes, and those are the mixes getting pressed as we speak.
I make no apologies for them...they sound good.
Oh...and to also touch back on Greg's insistence that there are phase issues because of the stereo miking….
M/S stereo miking has NO..ZERO...NADA...ZIP phase issues...which is why you can sum M/S stereo tracks to mono perfectly.
So Greg…maybe you should re-read those sections in your "Stereo Miking Techniques" manual.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Lol. Dude, you are a total goof. I certainly hope no one in here takes you seriously anymore - at least about drums anyway.
The proof is in the pudding. Your drum tracks sound like ass. Defend it, rationalize it, lie about it, take it out on me all you want. Sorry to burst your fragile bubble.
The proof is in the pudding. Your drum tracks sound like ass. Defend it, rationalize it, lie about it, take it out on me all you want. Sorry to burst your fragile bubble.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Nice come back....
What happened to your MP3 clinic mixes...?
After leaving them up for so long...all of a sudden NOW you feel they need to be redone?
I guess you were just believing your own hype for awhile there Greg...but sorry….those mixes weren’t that impressive. You obviously like very cluttered mixes.
What happened to your MP3 clinic mixes...?
After leaving them up for so long...all of a sudden NOW you feel they need to be redone?
I guess you were just believing your own hype for awhile there Greg...but sorry….those mixes weren’t that impressive. You obviously like very cluttered mixes.