How to increase velocity in Sonar 3?

[neon glow]

Seems like the name of my old thread kinda scared people away, so I better create a specific thread for this question...

How to increase velocity of a midi track in Sonar 3, without using the trim slider?

P.S. I don't want to use the trim slider, because it affects velocities of all the midi tracks that go through my synth, when I only move one of them, and this problem proved to be unsolvable.

 

[Disposable]

Highlight the midi you want to change velocity on...
Go to Edit --> Midi Effects --> Cakewalk --> Velocity

 

[James Argo]

neon glow, Disposable has given you the info. However, it's advised to be carefull before you do it. Why? because, in velocity lays expression. MIDI standard rules you to "devide" your expression into 128 (it's for 0~127) step. The bennefit of multi layered-velocity triggered sound synth (or sampler) is you can control how the sound produced based on each note's velocity. For example, say you have 3 notes on the track. Off course they're assign to same bank & patch (it's multilayered drum patch).

1st note, vel=60, triggers sound #rimshot
2nd note, vel=90, triggers sound #snare
3rd note, vel=120, triggers sound #hard snare

if you increase the velocity of the track by 30, then the result:

1st note, vel=90, triggers sound #snare
2nd note, vel=120, triggers sound #hard snare
3rd note, vel=127, triggers sound #hard snare <-- Hit the limit, so will have value max 127

If you're not sure how the sound patch layers it's sound, you will *probably* end up messing the expression your track! Because the expression will change along with the sound. So, please make backup before you do so.


Jaymz

 

[neon glow]

Disposable, James - Thank you very much for the info, guys.

James,
I understood your point in two ways, and I'm not sure which one you meant. Here's reply to the first way of how i understood it - you're warning me not to go higher than 127:

I might be mistaken, but I think that even velocity slider doesn't go higher than 127. The reason it seems to go higher is that it's default position is zero, while the volume's default position is 101. So, I don't think sonar will let me go higher than 127 if I use Disposable's way. Even if it will, I won't need it, because I will follow the values I have on the sliders, and they can't be higher than 127.


Second way - you're suggesting to take into account the change in expression when I will change velocity:
Actually, that's exactly why I need to change velocity. I need the changed expression. Coz I liked the way it sounded when I raised the trim slider. But it just messed up other tracks, that was the only problem. Thanks for the warning, but that's what I wanted to achieve - different, more offensive expression.

 

[James Argo]

I might be mistaken, but I think that even velocity slider doesn't go higher than 127. The reason it seems to go higher is that it's default position is zero, while the volume's default position is 101. So, I don't think sonar will let me go higher than 127 if I use Disposable's way. Even if it will, I won't need it, because I will follow the values I have on the sliders, and they can't be higher than 127.

Velocity slider won't go higher than 127, because it's the limit. Like I said earlier, it only tends to add or substract velocity values of the track selected by any given number. Off course, it's default position is zero. You can trim down (which means substract) down to -127, or trim up (yup, it adds) up to 127. If you trim up 20, then every notes' velocity value will be added 20 step. It's not necesarry written on the track, it's just Sonar will play the notes "20 step higher" than what's written. So, zero means "Play each notes the way it's written on track". Remember, Trim doesn't set all notes' velocity to value on the slider. It just simply add or substract by the value on it.

If you follow Disposable's way, then you will write new values for each notes on the track. You have many options there, eg. add or substract, set all notes to certain value, change gradualy, randomize, etc. New value will be written on the track as the result.

Volume is different thing. Zero means lowest (no sound), 127 means highest. That's why it's set as 101 by default, so you can hear the track being played.

Second way - you're suggesting to take into account the change in expression when I will change velocity:
Actually, that's exactly why I need to change velocity. I need the changed expression. Coz I liked the way it sounded when I raised the trim slider. But it just messed up other tracks, that was the only problem. Thanks for the warning, but that's what I wanted to achieve - different, more offensive expression.

The good news, today I manage to retry Hypersonic in Sonar. I found it cannot be inserted like regular DXi on audio track! You must access it from Insert-->DXi synth-->VSTHypersonic. Two new tracks (MIDI and DXi track)will then appear. Hypersonic won't show in the track's plugin field, so you must select View-->Synth Track, and open Hypersonic property page from there. I run couple of test regarding your previous problem about strange velocity behaviour affecting other MIDI track. I didn't have such problem though. So, if you're still interested, please explain again before Tuesday (it's American monday) where I would have returned Hypersonic copy & dongle key back to my friend. Maybe we'll see a light at the end of the tunnel...


Jaymz

 

[neon glow]

Ok, step by step...

1) Regarding the velocity: thanks, I understand now. I didn't take into account that it was adding values, and not just setting the values to the notes. So, yeah, I will watch out for that.

2) Regarding the Hypersonic installation: well, Hypersonic is not a real-time effect. It's just a synthesizer. The Sonar's panel for real-time effects is only for such effects that change audio or midi tracks somehow. Synthesizers can ONLY be inserted through the insert menu. It seems logical. And it suggests you to add midi track and audio output track, which is also very logical. But you can do it manually later, or create many midi tracks for one synth, or create many audio output tracks for one synth, etc. Many possibilities. But, whatever, you already managed it.

3) Regarding the problem I had:
Here's another step by step:
1) Start new project in Sonar.
2) Insert Hypersonic DXi through the insert menu, with one audio output track and one midi source track.
3) Now, add three more midi tracks. (actually, doesn't matter how many)
4) Set the outputs of these midi tracks to Hypersonic, and set the different channel for each. The track which was created automatically when you inserted Hypersonic is probably already set to channel 1. So set the next midi track to channel 2, next to 3, etc.
5) Go to the Hypersonic synth panel and assign some different Hypersonic's banks to each channel.
6) Record something on those midi tracks.
7) Now play it all, but while it's playing change the velocity of one of those midi tracks. It should change the other velocities.

BTW, try using channels 4, 5, and 6.. I don't know why, but it somehow feels like there was no problem before i got to one of them...

Also, try listening very carefully, because the change in velocity is not easily noticable.

Good luck and thanks!

 

[James Argo]

Regarding the Hypersonic installation: well, Hypersonic is not a real-time effect. It's just a synthesizer. The Sonar's panel for real-time effects is only for such effects that change audio or midi tracks somehow. Synthesizers can ONLY be inserted through the insert menu. It seems logical.

Hmmm, let me correct it (though you're not completely wrong)... You *can* insert synthesizer (DXi or VSTi) in the effect field of an audio track. The audio track will turn into DXi audio track (better don't record audio in it! ). Inserting synthesizer through Insert -->DXi synth is preferable since the menu is there for that purpose. I think Hypersonic is writen in VST format which is not guaranted 100% compatible with Sonar. As you see, you need salt & grain to use it in Sonar BTW, It's not stand alone application so you can't use it rewired.

I've followed every step you post above. But everything sounds normal to me. Altering any MIDI track's velocity using trim doesn't affect the other. I've tried 8 MIDI track on their own channel, and they all have independent control... hmmm...


Jaymz

 

[neon glow]

Ok. Every time I think I can explain something to you, it turns out you already know that, and deeper than I do. I'm getting there.

Hmm. I changed the velocity through the effect as Disposable suggested, and it did work, even though it doesn't sound exactly the way it was when i used slider. (some mess-up with numbers prolly) It still sounds good, and at least there's less chaos in this project now. I wonder how it worked for you... Try setting one midi track's velocity to some value other than zero, and then moving the trim sliders of other tracks...

You know, I actually think that when i started this project, and had a couple of tracks recorded, everything was fine. But later, when i added some new tracks, it started screwing around. It might be possible that some midi note on one of the tracks triggers some change in velocity... I don't know which and where though.. I just thought maybe that's the case. You know, like for example, sometimes channel 5 is used to control the volume of channels 6 through 10... Or something like this... But I tested channel 5 (tried to mute it, etc) and nothing changed.

 

[jamie_drum]

One thing has always confused me about the MIDI volume slider.

Suppose I have a MIDI track triggering a DXi, like DR008. The DXi reads the velocity of each note (60, 80, whatever...) and generates audio. If I change the volume slider on the AUDIO track where the DXi is inserted, I change the volume of that audio. No problems.

So what does changing the MIDI volume slider do? It isn't changing the velocity of the notes being sent to the DXi. Is it somehow indirectly controlling the volume of the audio output of the DXi?

Or does it perhaps only have any effect when the MIDI track is triggering something else, like an outboard MIDI instrument?

 

[James Argo]

Ok. Every time I think I can explain something to you, it turns out you already know that, and deeper than I do. I'm getting there.

Aah, we learn together. It's just a matter of time. You'll be there pretty soon, we hope

It might be possible that some midi note on one of the tracks triggers some change in velocity... I don't know which and where though.. I just thought maybe that's the case. You know, like for example, sometimes channel 5 is used to control the volume of channels 6 through 10... Or something like this... But I tested channel 5 (tried to mute it, etc) and nothing changed.

This is what came to my mind when I said you probably need to set all channel's output to "S" instead only first 4 of them (Hypersonic Setup menu). I still couldn't figure out how Hypersonic implemented their routing protocol. It's not quite explained well in their manual (no MIDI implementation chart etc.). It's like when you right click on the parameter field (right above piano keyboard on Hypersonic), looks like you can assign CC#16, CC#17, CC#18 etc exclusively to control each parameter. This thing remains unclear to me.

So what does changing the MIDI volume slider do? It isn't changing the velocity of the notes being sent to the DXi. Is it somehow indirectly controlling the volume of the audio output of the DXi?

Or does it perhaps only have any effect when the MIDI track is triggering something else, like an outboard MIDI instrument?

Changing the MIDI volume will change the volume using MIDI protocol. It's not changing velocity. It would indeed control the audio volume of MIDI device (or DXi for that matter) for mentioned channel.


Jaymz

 

[neon glow]

This is what came to my mind when I said you probably need to set all channel's output to "S" instead only first 4 of them (Hypersonic Setup menu).

I think that once Hypersonic gets to sending audio to outputs, it doesn't care about midi events anymore, so it wouldn't matter if you use either one or multiple outputs... (At least that's what experiments showed).

looks like you can assign CC#16, CC#17, CC#18 etc exclusively to control each parameter

Which controls these codes represent? Can it be that they were already assigned to control velocity, and that they're triggered by a key on the keyboard?... (If I even understand correctly what those codes mean ).

 

[James Argo]

Which controls these codes represent? Can it be that they were already assigned to control velocity, and that they're triggered by a key on the keyboard?... (If I even understand correctly what those codes mean ).

Never mind the audio output... Guess I need more sleep these days, things sometime mixed in my mind when I think too hard

Well, let see... CC is Command Control. As you know MIDI is not only about recording / playing notes. It can be used to control features on your MIDI devices. MIDI has 128 (..again) CCs devided by number, to control 128 different features on your synth, deppends on how your synth allows it. Some CC are standard, for example, CC#07 is MIDI volume, CC#10 is pan, CC#91 is reverb mix, CC#93 is chorus mix, etc. Yes, volume slider on MIDI track actualy CC#07. Since the standard used only few CCs, there's many more CCs available as assignable CC deppends on synth you use. So, say Hypersonic assign CC#17 (which is available) to control one of it's feature (in this case velocity level), then if you insert CC#17 value 120 on MIDI track in Cakewalk (which is routed to the channel on Hypersonic), that will set velocity of the channel to 120. Sounds complicated, eh? But in good way, you can control one featue in many way. Though some cases (like we have now) not every way runs smoothly


Jaymz

 

[neon glow]

Thx. I basically know how it works, just have a few confusions.. So when i press a key or any button on my hardware synth, computer receives CC#nn, and you never know what exactly it might do, because this command can be assigned to anything, 'cept the standard cases. Now another question is, which exact keys on my synth send CC#16/17/18 to the PC? It can be any keyboard key, or a key on the panel, right? And by default, are those CCs assigned to velocity in Hypersonic (which should be easier to check)? Actually, I really doubt they are. However, any of the CCs (not only the ones you mentioned) might be set to control velocity in Hypersonic by default. Maybe it was set permanently by programmers of Hypersonic. If not, then the solution to the problem is somewhere else...

 

[James Argo]

No key sends CC to your PC. Usualy, keys only send notes on & off, velocity, and aftertouch message (if supported)

Yes, on some patch, CC is set to control velocity level in Hypersonic by default (eg. CC#17 on Grand Piano). However, based on my experiment, sending CC#17 to Grand Piano patch doesn't make any difference in sound but moving the parameter indicator knob. We need more salt and grain here...


Jaymz

 

[neon glow]

Damn, this topic almost moved to the next page.

I guess I will manage this project the good old way, using Disposable's method (which i think now can officially be called this way, if Disposable doesn't mind ). Next time I use hypersonic, I'll try to watch carefully every change i make, and if i see it started resulting in this thing, it'd be easier to track down why. Now, if you find any new info or updates on the subj, please get in touch somehow (there are many ways available). Thanks man. I appreciate this great discussion and help. I've also learned much from you. Ttyl.

 

[James Argo]

Hey neon glow, Cakewalk has released patch update for VST wrapper. Try it out I've returned Hypersonic, so I wouldn't be able to try myself


Jaymz