How To Get The Tempo Right?

Dr. Varney

Dr. Varney

Pimp
I have this burning question but I don't quite know how to ask it. Okay, here goes... I want to set a tempo to a song so that I can attempt a cover. I'm trying to create a simple 'guide track' with a click sound.

I've recently discovered my software allows me to 'tap' the tempo but I don't quite know how often I should tap along to the song. Does that make any sense? It can sound right if I tap very quickly or quite slowly but what is correct? What I mean to say is, how much space should there be between taps?

Also I discovered recently that there are options to set something called the 'time signature' for the project. It has a parameters for 'bar' and one for 'beat'. There is also one called 'Timebase' (PPQ). Could anyone explain to me what all of this means and how can I find out what time signature a song has?

Thanks for any advice

Dr. V
 
Waltz = 3/4 Time
Everything else = 4/4 Time
Anything jazzy with weird timing = not worth covering
Tap along with the bass drum and snare (bass/snare/bass/snare etc etc) Do it at the same speed as the drums.
 
Hey Dr...

As ido says, tap along to the beat... that's the 1,2,3,4 bit of the first half of the 4:4 time signature. If you're in 3:4, then the notes are the same length, but there's only 3 of them... like a waltz, also as ido says...

There are other variants - I use 6:8 a lot, which is like 3:4 only the beats are half as long - used for a quicker "feel" - imagine someone tapping on a cymbal for a waltz - 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 - it's sort of slow-ish.... now tap faster and count to 6 - 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6 etc... a different feel completely, even if a bar has the same elapsed time...

Do some googling on time sigs if you're not across it - a basic bit of theory it's handy to know. And there are some great songs that use "unusual" time sigs as well... Money - Pink Floyd - 7:4 for instance... count it out.

Cheers
 
Thanks for the informative advice, chaps. I skipped music theory in school so some of my questions may appear assinine. However, I'm slowly getting to grips with the nuts and bolts mainly by ear. I've come to a point where a little theory seems essential to move on...

I wonder if anyone could take a listen to this: YouTube - Killing Joke - The Wait?

I have it down as 1,2,3,4 so that's 4:4, right? Four beats to the bar? Well, if I tap that in to set the DAW's tempo, I get something like 172bpm. The problem is, while it seems to hug the beat in some parts, over time it starts to stray.

I'm really not conifident with this aspect of music yet. I know I can look up most songs on a DJ-RPM sites but not every song. I need to understand this so I can learn to work it out for each song.

Thanks

Dr. V
 
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Oh god, this is frustrating. I'm having so much trouble trying to do this electronically. I got my pattern to fit somewhere in the middle of the original song but it doesn't work all over the song. I still don't understand how bpm tempo fits in here - as it could be anything! To try and explain what I'm trying to do and what's going wrong would take all day. What I need to know is, from start to finish, how do you set up a drum beat to play along with a song?

Would I be better getting hold of a small drum (say a kids' drum) and a stick and recording a 'tap' all the way through with my mic? I can't really think of any other way. This is really basic stuff... my own ignorance is really beginning to irritate me! Obviously I need to read up on something, but I'm actually not sure what to ask for.

Thanks

Dr. V
 
It strays because it probably wasn't recorded with a click or metronome to start with. I doubt it's a calculated tempo change.

If had the same thing when doing some old Nirvana covers. I got around it by dragging the mp3 into Cubase, get the tempo as right as I could, and using the warp tool to warp the rest of the audio slightly in places to fit the tempo. The changes are quite small so timing wise it's unnoticable. Of course, with all the warping, the audio file sounds all screwed, but as it's only a guide track it serves it's purpose. Then, once I've got that down, I programme the drums over it.

These days I don't bother with any of that. Last few covers I did, I set the tempo with a click and played along changing the tempo until it felt right. Then recorded scratch guitars to that click, and programmed the drums over it. It depends how faithful you want your cover to be. I'm not interesed in being 100% faithful. I'd rather do it the way I would do it. Sometimes that means it's the same, sometimes it's vastly different.

If you're struggling, and you can give me a couple of days, I might be able to knock something together for you. I've spent so much time messing around with this kind of stuff that I can kinda zone out when I do it now.
 
I tried drumming, freestyle over the top of it. From start to finish. What a blast... It sounded great while I was playing... then I played it back....

Does anyone know where I can get trained chimp?

:(
 
legionserial said:
As I say, if you want me to program some drums for you and send you the MIDI files and drum maps I'm happy to do it. Depending on how much of a hurry you're in. :D
Click to expand...

Thanks, Legion. I appreciate that. If you could do some part of it to get me started on the right course, I could perhaps take it from there. The end goal is to eventually learn to do this myself. The song is here:
YouTube - Killing Joke - The Wait. If I can hear how you interpret it, it should help me to focus my ears better.

Cheers

Dr. V
 
Not to confuse, but most DAWs also have whats called a tempo track, where you can set the beginning one the song at one tempo, for instance, and the rest at a different one. I know that is not very helpful to you right now, but its something to think about later.

When I set tempo, I usually just pick a number that sounds right and let it click, if its too fast I stop it and adjust the tempo a little lower, sometimes it takes a few minutes for me to dial in the exact tempo that I want, and I usually have to play the guitar a little to be sure, but fairly quickly I can get an idea of what feels right.

I agee with legion though, not much point in trying to be 100% faithful to the original, make it your own!
 
Dr. Varney said:
Thanks for the informative advice, chaps. I skipped music theory in school so some of my questions may appear assinine. However, I'm slowly getting to grips with the nuts and bolts mainly by ear. I've come to a point where a little theory seems essential to move on...

I wonder if anyone could take a listen to this: YouTube - Killing Joke - The Wait?

I have it down as 1,2,3,4 so that's 4:4, right? Four beats to the bar? Well, if I tap that in to set the DAW's tempo, I get something like 172bpm. The problem is, while it seems to hug the beat in some parts, over time it starts to stray.

I'm really not conifident with this aspect of music yet. I know I can look up most songs on a DJ-RPM sites but not every song. I need to understand this so I can learn to work it out for each song.

Thanks

Dr. V
Click to expand...

Yes, 4/4 at ~175bpm. That's a pretty fast tempo, but the song has a lot of energy.

I would agree, a little theory can go a long way. have fun with it.
 
complex time signatures are not named properly. They are no more complex than 4/4 time... 5/4 is one of my favorites now. 5/4 has the magical ability to "fool" the listener. The listener counts, and clearly senses what is normal to hear... 4 beats, 4 beats... but in reality is 5:4 not 4:4...

people report it sounds "simple" and yet somehow "complex" at the same time... they know something is "up", but they just cant put their finger on it.

writing in 5:4 when you are used to 4:4 I found no more difficult. simply set the "measure" in your software to contain an extra "beat". The only thing a tiny bit weird, at first for me as a drummer, was deciding where to put the bass kicks. You cant go 1,3,1,3 over and over again like your used to. You have choices... 1,5,1,5... or 1,3,5,1,3,5....

5:4 time is usually recccomended as a first experiment, and 7/8 is usually reccomended as the next one.

when writing music on a computer you can easily make the intro one time signature, the "meat" before and after the bridge another... and yet another for the bridge. Playing "guess the time signature" on the casual listener is considered one of the "hallmarks" of being progressive in any genre.

the listener tapping their foot, or nodding to the beat... well, they are used to nodding or tapping on the start and midle of every measure like a clock... they suddenly find themselves nodding on beats they think are "weird" and they have a sense of everything being "out of time" and yet "in time" all at once.

bands like queensryche and dream theatre like to "stack" the complex time signatures with a regular one, IE they will have every two measures in 7/8, 4/4, 7/8, 4/4... (here you can think of the 4/4 as 8/8 if you like)

it fights boredom, makes things seem complex when they often arent, and every song need not use it... I already liked the classical number I made with 5:4, and I cant wait to apply it to a rock type song... dont knock it till you tried it !!

PS - whoever said "restless urgency", was a good description, particularly if you ever heard "Mars, the bringer of war" by "Holst". its a classical "march" but its in 5:4...

PPS - John WIlliams has been accused for instance, of making "classsical" boiled down forthe masses, for eample with his famous "Imperial march" (darth vaders theme); he rather borrowed heavily from Holst and his trademark march... but did it in 4:4, so the "great unwashed masses" could nod their head to it and not get "confused".

I dont buy the whole "makes my head hurt" theory on complex time sigs... it requires nothing of you listening, except to feel something different and not know what it is off hand. particularly with software, its little mroe than trivial to start implementing it.

PPPS - your drummer can play a basic 4/4 beat to a 5/4 song, you know... if youve ever heard a drumer doing measure 1, measure 2, measure 3, standard-riff-here... then repeat as necesary? if the guitarist is playing 5/4 while he's in 4/4... the "riffs" are a lot mroe surprising, and are liable to come preceived as cutting in at the start, middle, or end of a "measure"...

try it... youll like it...
 
Armistice said:
Hey Dr...

As ido says, tap along to the beat... that's the 1,2,3,4 bit of the first half of the 4:4 time signature. If you're in 3:4, then the notes are the same length, but there's only 3 of them... like a waltz, also as ido says...

There are other variants - I use 6:8 a lot, which is like 3:4 only the beats are half as long - used for a quicker "feel" - imagine someone tapping on a cymbal for a waltz - 1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 - it's sort of slow-ish.... now tap faster and count to 6 - 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5,6 etc... a different feel completely, even if a bar has the same elapsed time...

Do some googling on time sigs if you're not across it - a basic bit of theory it's handy to know. And there are some great songs that use "unusual" time sigs as well... Money - Pink Floyd - 7:4 for instance... count it out.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Actually 6:8 and 3:4... 6:8 the beats are on 1 and 4 in 3:4 they're on 1,2,3 or just 1,
 
Dr. Varney said:
Thanks, Legion. I appreciate that. If you could do some part of it to get me started on the right course, I could perhaps take it from there. The end goal is to eventually learn to do this myself. The song is here:
YouTube - Killing Joke - The Wait. If I can hear how you interpret it, it should help me to focus my ears better.

Cheers

Dr. V
Click to expand...

Holy crap dude, I totally forgot about this thread. Lol. Sorry. If you still want I'll see what I can do.
 
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