How often do you practice voice?

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EightMilesHigh

Member
As far as I can see, there isn’t a forum for the topic of voice, and that is why I am posting this here. Hopefully, this is a correct enough place. If not, please forgive :)

I am especially interested in how often people who sing lead in rock or folk practice. This is something I have never been consistent with, and sometimes I think I practice too much, (even though I like to sing a great deal, and strive constantly to get better.) I’m 22 and have sung almost every day for the past three years (except when sick or otherwise not feeling up to par), but the amount of time each day varies considerably. How long/often do you practice, and what made you settle on that amount?

My objective is to eventually figure out a consistent practice routine that works for me.
 
Somewhere else in this forum I've been critical of people who equate desire with entitlement; they feel that their passion for music, or thirst for success, is sufficient justification for being handed it.

You, on the other hand, seem to be from the other school; the one that says success demands effort, perseverance and dedication.

I beleive that aspirants for the pinnacle of the musical world need to put in the same amount of training and dedication that any, say, Olympic athlete does to reach his or her peak.

How much is enough? I can't say. But I know that high-achieving athletes train every day.

If I said I exercise my vocal chords once a week, how would that help you?
I would be a bad example to follow; I drink to much coffee, smoke too many cigarettes, and strain my voice when singing. However, neither do I have, nor seek, grand aspirations.

Your post is curious, because you say "this is something I have never been consistent with", yet go on and say that you have "sung almost every day for the past three years", which sounds pretty consistent to me!

The key of your post is your last sentence, particularly the final clause: "My objective is to eventually figure out a consistent practice routine that works for me".

Back to the athlete analogy: A Wimbledon tennis player has the benefit of a coach who is an expert and professional in the field of tennis coaching, and the coach devises the player's training schedule. If you are treating your voice seriously, then you could do worse than enlisting a vocal coach to design your training regime, and this person will help you something that "works for you".

I am not sure that anyone's opinion here (includng mine) can do that for you.

Best of luck with your singing career.

And . . . keep up with your practice!
 
Thank you, and thanks for the perceptive post. I think that makes a lot of sense, finding a trainer. This is something that I HAVE to do. Funds are a bit limited though at this juncture(hopefully not in a year or so), and I live in a country town really in the middle of nowhere.

Truth be told, I've been slightly reticent because I already have a great variety of material and have the ability to record my practicing. My pitch is also right on (due to practice, I think), and range above average (slightly more than three octaves including falsetto). I started late, at 18, so I kind of missed the boat for high school chorus and the like, so I have had very little input other than what I hear myself, and positive comments from those who have heard me live. This has to change...

Of course, my goal is for absolute excellence(in singing as well as songwriting), and I am extremely critical of myself. When I said that I wasn't consistent, I meant that some days I sing three or four hours (especially on solo acoustic gig days), while other days I do it somewhere between 50 minutes and two hours.
 
You seem to be pretty serious about singing. I am serious about it also, but I do not practice. I am ever so much more than 20 as the saying from Peter Pan goes. 55 to be exact. You know how when people hear themselves recorded they say, "I sound like that?" Well, that's not me. I've been singing for 30 years pretty seriously, although I retired from playing out 25 years ago.

I hear my voice in my head exactly like I hear it on tape, so it does me no good to practice. Oh, I've warmed up my voice from time to time with the siren sound and the witch sound (any sound coach will tell you about them) and I sing the do re mi fa so la ti do and backwards very fast in the key I'm about to sing in, but I don't call that practice. I'm never going to be a Josh Brolin so I don't see much point in it.

Do you have relative pitch? You don't need perfect pitch, but unless you have realative pitch, all the practice in the world won't stop you from singing pitchy.

Relative pitch means that if you play a note on an instrument, I may not know what it is, but if you tell me what it is, I can sing any other note dead nuts perfect and you can tune your instrument to it. Guaranteed.

I would start there. Determine if you have relative pitch and then get a vocal coach if you do.
 
pitch

Pitch really hasn't ever been a problem except for when I first started singing. I have recordings from when I first started(four years ago), and there were some problems. That was before I discovered the idea of thinking about the note you want to hit before you sing it. That has since become second nature, and now very seldom do I sing off pitch, and if I do, I know it immediately. I don't often need many takes to nail a vocal. My guitars are also always kept in tune. I sing in all of the different keys, (flats and minors included), and know an incredible amount of songs. (I think this indirectly answers the relative pitch question.) I'm not especially enamored with my tone(though I've been told it is good by many), but pitch and range simply haven't been problems for the last couple of years. I guess what I probably need more than anything is either some reassurance that my regimen is good or someone to help design a better one. This will probably come from a coach of some kind. I don't want to mess myself up, I'd like to get as good as I can get, and be excellent for years to come. This is an area I know very little about, as I haven't had musical training of any kind, but I have an extensive collection of music. There is a thought in the back of my mind that I might find people that can’t help me, but maybe it is time to step out of the box. I guess I won't be looking for just anybody. So the search begins... :)
 
EightMilesHigh said:
Pitch really hasn't ever been a problem except for when I first started singing. I have recordings from when I first started(four years ago), and there were some problems. That was before I discovered the idea of thinking about the note you want to hit before you sing it. That has since become second nature, and now very seldom do I sing off pitch, and if I do, I know it immediately. I don't often need many takes to nail a vocal. My guitars are also always kept in tune. I sing in all of the different keys, (flats and minors included), and know an incredible amount of songs. (I think this indirectly answers the relative pitch question.) I'm not especially enamored with my tone(though I've been told it is good by many), but pitch and range simply haven't been problems for the last couple of years. I guess what I probably need more than anything is either some reassurance that my regimen is good or someone to help design a better one. This will probably come from a coach of some kind. I don't want to mess myself up, I'd like to get as good as I can get, and be excellent for years to come. This is an area I know very little about, as I haven't had musical training of any kind, but I have an extensive collection of music. There is a thought in the back of my mind that I might find people that can’t help me, but maybe it is time to step out of the box. I guess I won't be looking for just anybody. So the search begins... :)
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Sounds like you're on the right track. You sound disciplined, so you may be well ahead of the game for that reason alone. I myself am not.

Here's something to think about: Breath control is paramount. Don't worry about tone so much, or vibrato control, those things will come. You will learn to sing from your gut, and your throat and the value of each.

You can take too much of a breath to support a note and too little. Both will produce a weak note that you can't punch. (Torch singer - like Ronstadt)

The term comes from blowtorch, not carrying a torch.

Anyway, you have to take just the right amount of breath to support the note you are going to sing. Especially if you want to sustain a note for a certain length of time and then finish with the vibrato.

Obviously, a quick succession of notes in a short time frame or tongue twister is going to be done in the throat. You don't have time to sing from the bottom.

Why don't you post something so we can hear you sing.

That will give you more specific feedback.
 
It sound like you are diciplined - which places you at an advantage over many musicians/singers.

Without hearing you, or seeing your posture or watching how you breath, it is impossible for anyone to offer you specific solutions.

Finding a vocal coach would be the best thing for you to do - if you are truly serious about being the best you can be. While there are many instructional videos which identify various techniques....a video can not tell you when you are doing something wrong....a coach can.

Practising 4 hours a day does no good if you practise the wrong techniques!

I went to a vocal coach after being "slf taught" for many, many years. I actually improved my tone and added a couple of notes to my high end.....but I had to first unlearn many years of bad technique.

You would be wise to unlearn bad technique sooner rather than later.
 
Xeries said:
You seem to be pretty serious about singing. I am serious about it also, but I do not practice. I am ever so much more than 20 as the saying from Peter Pan goes. 55 to be exact. You know how when people hear themselves recorded they say, "I sound like that?" Well, that's not me. I've been singing for 30 years pretty seriously, although I retired from playing out 25 years ago.

I hear my voice in my head exactly like I hear it on tape, so it does me no good to practice. Oh, I've warmed up my voice from time to time with the siren sound and the witch sound (any sound coach will tell you about them) and I sing the do re mi fa so la ti do and backwards very fast in the key I'm about to sing in, but I don't call that practice. I'm never going to be a Josh Brolin so I don't see much point in it.

Do you have relative pitch? You don't need perfect pitch, but unless you have realative pitch, all the practice in the world won't stop you from singing pitchy.

Relative pitch means that if you play a note on an instrument, I may not know what it is, but if you tell me what it is, I can sing any other note dead nuts perfect and you can tune your instrument to it. Guaranteed.

I would start there. Determine if you have relative pitch and then get a vocal coach if you do.
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I'm not sure if this was your intention, but it sounds to me as though you're implying that one is born with relative pitch (i.e., you either have it or you don't). It's this statement specifically that I'm talking about:

"Do you have relative pitch? You don't need perfect pitch, but unless you have realative pitch, all the practice in the world won't stop you from singing pitchy."

This makes it sound as though practicing singing won't help you develop a better ear (and therefore, "relative pitch"). If this is what you mean, then it's absolutlely nonsense, and it upsets me a good bit.

I started as a guitar player (by no means a singer), and my first semester at UNT, I had to take sight singing (as all music majors did). For someone who had never sung before, it was pretty daunting to sing melodies (in Solfege) a capella in front of 30 or 40 other musicians at 8:00 in the morning. I still remember my teacher's comments after the first time I ever sang something: "Well ... um ... the one good thing I can say about that is that you kind of remembered where Do was."

My ear was terrible when I started. I didn't know when my guitar was out of tune (except grossly), much less have relative pitch.

Well, fast forward fifteen years, and I've got pretty darn good relative pitch now. I can certainly identify any other note played on an instrument by ear once I have a reference pitch, and I can get pretty close (sometimes right on) when asked to sing any note with a reference pitch. Granted, I'm not always right on, but it's not because I simply "don't have relative pitch." It's because I have not been disciplined and I haven't practiced singing as much as I should. I get better all the time, but my biggest improvement by far occured during the years I spent in college, when I was forced to sing several times a week in classes and in choir. I've spent more of my time since then working on songwriting, guitar playing, etc. and have neglected my singing most of all. I think I'm decent, but I know I could be much better if I applied myself.

To say that singing won't help with pitch issues is ... just plain silly. That's by far the best thing you can do to help with pitch problems.
 
famous beagle said:
I'm not sure if this was your intention, but it sounds to me as though you're implying that one is born with relative pitch (i.e., you either have it or you don't). It's this statement specifically that I'm talking about:

"Do you have relative pitch? You don't need perfect pitch, but unless you have realative pitch, all the practice in the world won't stop you from singing pitchy."

This makes it sound as though practicing singing won't help you develop a better ear (and therefore, "relative pitch"). If this is what you mean, then it's absolutlely nonsense, and it upsets me a good bit.

I started as a guitar player (by no means a singer), and my first semester at UNT, I had to take sight singing (as all music majors did). For someone who had never sung before, it was pretty daunting to sing melodies (in Solfege) a capella in front of 30 or 40 other musicians at 8:00 in the morning. I still remember my teacher's comments after the first time I ever sang something: "Well ... um ... the one good thing I can say about that is that you kind of remembered where Do was."

My ear was terrible when I started. I didn't know when my guitar was out of tune (except grossly), much less have relative pitch.

Well, fast forward fifteen years, and I've got pretty darn good relative pitch now. I can certainly identify any other note played on an instrument by ear once I have a reference pitch, and I can get pretty close (sometimes right on) when asked to sing any note with a reference pitch. Granted, I'm not always right on, but it's not because I simply "don't have relative pitch." It's because I have not been disciplined and I haven't practiced singing as much as I should. I get better all the time, but my biggest improvement by far occured during the years I spent in college, when I was forced to sing several times a week in classes and in choir. I've spent more of my time since then working on songwriting, guitar playing, etc. and have neglected my singing most of all. I think I'm decent, but I know I could be much better if I applied myself.

To say that singing won't help with pitch issues is ... just plain silly. That's by far the best thing you can do to help with pitch problems.
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Thanks, FB, now I have to say much less.

The assertion that one cannot learn relative pitch, or that one should only get a teacher if they already have relative pitch, is downright ignorant nonsense. If one does not have relative pitch, its all the more reason to seek vocal lessons. I do not mean to sound derisive towards anyone personally. That said, the truth about singing is that it is a skill that anyone can learn with dedication and guidance. Period. This is not to say that one can change certain aspects of their voice.

I also really don't understand this sentence:

Xeries said:
I hear my voice in my head exactly like I hear it on tape, so it does me no good to practice.
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The purpose of practicing voice is not to gain an understanding of how the audience hears you — that is the purpose of recording oneself in practice or performance, or of using monitors. The purpose of practicing is to improve tone and control.

To use an analogy, my guitar sounds to me exactly as it does to the audience or on tape. I practice because I want it sound better — both tonally and technically.

Again, I apologize if I sound condescending. However, I think that the attitude that one should only seek instruction under certain circumstances is one that, if allowed to continue, will discourage people that could be talented singers from finding their full potential.

To the original poster — where do you live? Someone on the board might be able to help you find a qualified instructor.
 
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azraelswings said:
Thanks, FB, now I have to say much less.

The assertion that one cannot learn relative pitch, or that one should only get a teacher if they already have relative pitch, is downright ignorant nonsense. If one does not have relative pitch, its all the more reason to seek vocal lessons. I do not mean to sound derisive towards anyone personally. That said, the truth about singing is that it is a skill that anyone can learn with dedication and guidance. Period. This is not to say that one can change certain aspects of their voice.

I also really don't understand this sentence:



The purpose of practicing voice is not to gain an understanding of how the audience hears you — that is the purpose of recording oneself in practice or performance, or of using monitors. The purpose of practicing is to improve tone and control.

To use an analogy, my guitar sounds to me exactly as it does to the audience or on tape. I practice because I want it sound better — both tonally and technically.

Again, I apologize if I sound condescending. However, I think that the attitude that one should only seek instruction under certain circumstances is one that, if allowed to continue, will discourage people that could be talented singers from finding their full potential.

To the original poster — where do you live? Someone on the board might be able to help you find a qualified instructor.
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Condescending? Naw, not in the least. Let me explain what I was trying to say. When I first started out singing, 30 years ago, I would hear myself on tape and couldn't believe that I sounded like that. I hated it, hearing my voice, that is. After a long time, I now hear exactly what I sound like. I'm not saying that I like it or that I'm great at it, just that I am not surprised anymore.

As far as relative pitch goes, perhaps I should have used the word tone deaf. Some people are and they will have little success trying to sing on key. You have to have a reference. You used the term reference note.

If you are tone deaf, a reference note will not help you.

Do I sing on key all the time? Of course, not. The difference is that I know when I am off key. If the cans are too hot, I will sing sharp, but I don't realize it until I play it back. Why do I detect it? Because I have relative pitch.

Tuning problems have plagued me a lot lately because I can't voice my guitar very well. The intonation is off and the action is too high.

If I tune it to play an E chord perfectly, the B or 2nd string will play sharp when I move to an A or D chord. It drives me crazy. Relative pitch is a double edged sword. It can make you feel that you're not getting it right and that you never will.

To the ear of a very sensitive musician, very few guitars can be "voiced" to play in tune in every chord. A lot of players will tune for a specific key and live with the fact that it will not be perfect, but be the best of all evils.

That B string has to be tuned a little flat and the G string as well with my guitar because the action is a bit high. Otherwise an A chord or D chord will play too sharp.

If I were tone deaf, I could just use the tuner and be happy when the green light tells me it's in tune.

Condescending? Sure, just beat me up for being honest. If you're tone deaf, all the voice lessons in the world will not help you.

Certainly practice will make you better at anything you do. But you have to have the potential to be outstanding. I don't practice voice because I know my limitations. I will only be so good and then I hit the wall. I'm good enough to get the job done, but I'll never sing like Josh Brogan.
 
Xeries said:
Condescending? Naw, not in the least. Let me explain what I was trying to say. When I first started out singing, 30 years ago, I would hear myself on tape and couldn't believe that I sounded like that. I hated it, hearing my voice, that is. After a long time, I now hear exactly what I sound like. I'm not saying that I like it or that I'm great at it, just that I am not surprised anymore.
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That is what I gathered, and I don't doubt it. A huge part of voice training is learning the difference between how you sound to the audience, rather than to yourself. Its an awareness I wish I had. That said, that level of awareness is a tool to be used in practice, not an excuse not to.

As far as relative pitch goes, perhaps I should have used the word tone deaf. Some people are and they will have little success trying to sing on key. You have to have a reference. You used the term reference note.

If you are tone deaf, a reference note will not help you.
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Tone deaf is certainly a much better word choice. But, very few people are truly tone deaf. With guidance, most people can develop an ear for the western tonal system of music.

Do I sing on key all the time? Of course, not. The difference is that I know when I am off key. If the cans are too hot, I will sing sharp, but I don't realize it until I play it back. Why do I detect it? Because I have relative pitch.

Tuning problems have plagued me a lot lately because I can't voice my guitar very well. The intonation is off and the action is too high.

If I tune it to play an E chord perfectly, the B or 2nd string will play sharp when I move to an A or D chord. It drives me crazy. Relative pitch is a double edged sword. It can make you feel that you're not getting it right and that you never will.

To the ear of a very sensitive musician, very few guitars can be "voiced" to play in tune in every chord. A lot of players will tune for a specific key and live with the fact that it will not be perfect, but be the best of all evils.

That B string has to be tuned a little flat and the G string as well with my guitar because the action is a bit high. Otherwise an A chord or D chord will play too sharp.

If I were tone deaf, I could just use the tuner and be happy when the green light tells me it's in tune.
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All true, though I don't particularly see how it pertains to the original topic of voice. I think we can all agree on what the term "tone deaf" means.

Condescending? Sure, just beat me up for being honest. If you're tone deaf, all the voice lessons in the world will not help you.
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As I said before, I do not mean to sound condescending. Further, I do not mean to "beat anyone up." What I do mean to do is correct grossly ignorant and discouraging information. I fully support respect on the boards, and do not mean to make or begin any personal attack. However, the fact of the matter is that you are wrong. I am simply trying to find a way to say so without personally attacking.

There are very few truly tone deaf people. Even if one cannot recognize a pitch and sing it back immediately, a teacher can help develop the musical ear. Even voice performance majors struggle with ear training.

Certainly practice will make you better at anything you do. But you have to have the potential to be outstanding. I don't practice voice because I know my limitations.
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Quite frankly, no you don't. One can only know their limitations if one has realized their full potential. From your admitted lack of dedicated practice, you have not.

I will only be so good and then I hit the wall. I'm good enough to get the job done, but I'll never sing like Josh Brogan.
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That may be true. But, without dedicated practice you will never really know where that wall is. Your personal history betrays your argument. If you were able to say "I took voice instruction for X years, practiced for hours daily, sang in a chorus that rehearsed weekly, and I never saw results," then your "I'll never be Josh Groban" argument would make sense. As it stands, it does not.

Among the psychological acknowledgements that one must make in the pursuit of good vocal technique, is that one has limitations that can be overcome with guidance and dedication.

A better litmus test for the novice singer would be, "Ask yourself if you genuinely want to be a singer and are willing to dedicate yourself to becoming one wholeheartedly." There is a reason that every vocal star's Behind the Music features childhood videos of them singing at young ages in stupid costumes. There is a reason that the typical opera singer spends 12-14 years of their adult life in training before they debut. There is a reason that there are so many books on vocal pedagogy. That reason, is that singing is a learnable skill like any other that improves with dedicated practice and time. Period.

The most damaging perspective for a novice singer to have is that they can only be so good, and thus that practice will not yield results. Such perspective hinders the emotional risk-taking necessary in beginning the process of bettering one's voice.

To put it simply, dedicated practice may not guarantee immediate results, but the one method guaranteed NOT to make one a great singer is not to try.

To the original poster, I would recommend:

1. Singing in a vocal performance group of some kind (Community Chorus, etc). Knowing other singers will help you pick up things. Singing in front of people frequently in rehearsal will help you develop more ease performing. The feedback will also help.

2. Find a reputable teacher.

3. A good daily warm up can be found in Jeannie Deva's Contemporary Vocalist. Its about $60, available online. I really like the program, but must admit I'm not terribly far into it yet.

4. Regarding gig days: during your normal practice, figure out how long it takes your voice get warmed up. That is, find the peak of your comfort and sound, and experiment to get to the level of ease on stage. I find that practicing heavily on gig days just stresses me out more. Though, I haven't been singing long — performing still freaks the hell out of me. So, again, experiment.

5. Read about voice. Antony Frisell and Richard Miller are two names to start with.
 
I wholeheartedly agree that warming up helps the voice. There are other aspects of singing that may or may not help you. Some say coffee or caffeine is bad for the voice. I like to suck on peppermint sometimes because it changes the tone of my voice. Everybody's different. I recommend that you find what works best for you. For me, when I really wanted to apply myself, I hit tennis balls against the wall for about an hour. This tightened up the muscles controlling my diaphragm. I sing better after hitting tennis balls, but crunches might do the same thing. Experiment, and pay attention to the difference with each device you use.
 
My good friend and vocal coach Steve teaches music in a small town school system. He can take an appearantly tone deaf kid and with a little personal attention applied on a daily basis, teach the kid to sing in tune. His choirs win awards every year in the festivals. Steve says that you have to start early to get the best results, but he claims that anyone...everyone can learn to sing. The most difficult thing for me to learn has been how to form vowel sounds (A-E-I-O-U) is a way that sounds like singing. We Americans produce a wide variety of vowel sounds depending on the region. Think of the difference between EmmyLou Harris and Barbra Streisand. Each has a remarkable vocal quality but they are so different. There is no single RightWay to sing except to maximize your endurance, fix pitch problems and extend the range of the instrument you have both note wise and expression wise.
On another subject...we do need a "Singing" thread. Lets lobby the Dragon to set one up.

chazba
 
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I have a CD course that I bought online for about $200. Its called Singing Success and has the best reviews (from mulitple, independent sources) of any CD course I've seen. If you cant' find a good voice coach in person, perhaps you are self-disciplined enough to take full advantage of a good CD training course. The same people put out a course to help teach perfect pitch, tho I haven't tried it yet. So far, the first 3 lessons on the first CD are good, but real-life took over and I haven't gotten any further.

To pitch in another of my two cents worth...When it comes to knowing how well you might sing, there's another distinction that comes in to play besides training i.e. skill, that is "talent". Skilled singers can be "good", maybe even "really good" but it takes Talent of a certain caliber to become "great."
I would think that most people have a decent idea of what their particular level of talent is. If someone tells me they'll never be a "<insert name here>" it's my tendency to believe them, not argue the truthfulness of the statement. I could take ballroom dancing lessons for years and never become a Fred Astair; I can take all the creative writing courses I can find, but I'll never be a good novelist. Thing is, I'm content to never be a Fred Astair. I might not ever be an Ernest Hemmingway, or Rogers and Hammerstein; I'm content to be jdblessing, and will strive to be the best that I can be, no matter how it may compare to someone else.

<stepping down off the soap box now, sermon over, just send money...lots of money, no refunds.:) >
 
I would love to have the GUSTO to practice like you already have,
I would love to be able to sing my songs and not have them sound like crap..but I do it anyway!! So it sounds like you already have a good set of ruels...There are some good books out there, I bought one that came with a CD.and had great reviews, but I never practiced like it said to..so maby a good book will help you!!!
 
azraelswings said:
I am simply trying to find a way to say so without personally attacking.
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Okay, we can help you with that.


Here's you doing it right:

azraelswings said:
....the fact of the matter is that you are wrong..
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Here's you doing it wrong:

azraelswings said:
The assertion that one cannot learn relative pitch, or that one should only get a teacher if they already have relative pitch, is downright ignorant nonsense.
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Any questions?
 
The music in my head never stops playing. Whether it's manifesting by my singing depends on whether I'm alone or not.

When I was performing regularly there was rehearsal - an important and different thing than practice.
 
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