How much would it cost to start an indie record label?

  • Thread starter Thread starter guitarguy101
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See, this is why you aren't a lawyer. No offense, you are young and lack experience, but that advice given to a client would get you sued for malpractice.

Don't conflate terms, terminology is *critical* in law. That's why people hire lawyers to draft documents. Nonprofit <> co-op, in any stretch of the imagination. Co-op <> partnership and/or LLC.

If you really want to know what a co-op is, here's a slideshow that doesn't look too bad:

http://www.nsacoop.org/pdf-docs/tax_sessions/Jason Reschly - Principles of Cooperative Taxation.pdf

So you will quickly see that it's a C corporation (learn what that is) that is subject to tax on its earnings not distributed to members via the patronage dividend. That's a complex structure that is ill-advised for your situation, and could result in double taxation (not that you'll be making that much money, but someday you might be advising clients who do).

An alternative structure would be a partnership (or LLC, they have mostly identical treatment under US tax law, but differ in that there must be a general partner (with unlimited personal liability) in a limited partnership, whereas all LLC members enjoy limited liability. This too would be excessively complex for your intended business as you'd have to calculate an annual distribution of excess profits to all of your members (well you don't *have* to, but you said you wanted to), and they would all be taxed on such income on their personal returns. When you start handing out K-1s to all of your HS band chums they will stare at you with a puzzled look of non-understanding.

None of the above structures are "tax-exempt" for federal or state income tax or for state sales taxes. They might be "pass-through" entities, but all of their income will end up taxed somewhere.

A true "not for profit" corporation, often called a "non-profit" or more formally an "exempt organization" has to be organized under specific requirements pursuant to state law and then file for federal nonprofit status, garnering something referred to as a "determination letter" from the IRS. Only corporations organized for certain charitable purposes (and some others) may apply. Substantial disclosures are required on annual tax filings, and transactions with officers & directors are carefully scrutinized for restrictions on self-dealing; that is, running a nonprofit for personal benefit, or stuffing what should be a taxable for-profit business under the guise of a charity. Those are big no-nos and you really don't want to bother with all that trouble.

As for the limitation of personal liability with an LLC structure: any lawyer worth her salt will go to the deepest pocket where they can potentially attach liability. If you are running an LLC record label/recording studio in your dad's house, and you sloppily run cables in a manner that causes a client to trip and injure himself, then:

- your LLC gets sued as the owner of the equipment and the contracting entity with the musician;
- you get sued because it was your personal negligence in laying the cable;
- your dad gets sued because it's his house and you are his minor child.

This is why a good lawyer would recommend not locating a commercial recording studio in a personal residence . . . at least without plenty of liability insurance that specifically covered business use of a home with clients at the residence . . .
 
I've been taking law classes since sixth grade to pass the bar, don't belittle my accomplishments...

Calm down child, this is the internet. You can claim to be the Carl's Junior Hamburger God, have a Ph.D. in Astrogation from M.I.T., and have built your own nuclear fusion powered interstellar spaceship from neodymium magnets, toothpicks, and chocolate covered ants for all I care.

Luck.
 
So what happened to the idea of charging other bands to record, like you mentioned in the thread you started a month or so ago? Fall through?
 
@guitaristic
I've done that on a few occasions, I just think starting a label would be more fun.
 
I dunno, this thread seems to have gone down-hill, and I mean fast. The OP claims to (if I remember correctly) to both have passed the bar himself, and to have a dad that is a attorney, yet he is asking us for legal advise? I tried to keep my comments/suggestions focused, but now I find I just don't care, anymore. So, when I say it this time, I mean it with a big dose of sarcasm...

Good luck.
 
Don't delete it. This could be helpful for future generations. It doesn't strike me as a bad idea in principle.
 
Mods or super mods (can't recall which, maybe both) can delete a thread. but I agree with Grim. This thread does have some value, it's just run it's course. Might be better to close, but not delete, this thread.

Oh, and I am not ragging on you, so much as saying the thread is just "done."
 
Well, really he was just asking for some business advice rather than "legal advice"....however, there aren't many people here that are the type of people he wanted to ask (i.e. REAL studio owners...you know what I mean :D )
 
See, this is why you aren't a lawyer. No offense, you are young and lack experience, but that advice given to a client would get you sued for malpractice.

Don't conflate terms, terminology is *critical* in law. That's why people hire lawyers to draft documents. Nonprofit <> co-op, in any stretch of the imagination. Co-op <> partnership and/or LLC.

If you really want to know what a co-op is, here's a slideshow that doesn't look too bad:

http://www.nsacoop.org/pdf-docs/tax_sessions/Jason Reschly - Principles of Cooperative Taxation.pdf

So you will quickly see that it's a C corporation (learn what that is) that is subject to tax on its earnings not distributed to members via the patronage dividend. That's a complex structure that is ill-advised for your situation, and could result in double taxation (not that you'll be making that much money, but someday you might be advising clients who do).

An alternative structure would be a partnership (or LLC, they have mostly identical treatment under US tax law, but differ in that there must be a general partner (with unlimited personal liability) in a limited partnership, whereas all LLC members enjoy limited liability. This too would be excessively complex for your intended business as you'd have to calculate an annual distribution of excess profits to all of your members (well you don't *have* to, but you said you wanted to), and they would all be taxed on such income on their personal returns. When you start handing out K-1s to all of your HS band chums they will stare at you with a puzzled look of non-understanding.

None of the above structures are "tax-exempt" for federal or state income tax or for state sales taxes. They might be "pass-through" entities, but all of their income will end up taxed somewhere.

A true "not for profit" corporation, often called a "non-profit" or more formally an "exempt organization" has to be organized under specific requirements pursuant to state law and then file for federal nonprofit status, garnering something referred to as a "determination letter" from the IRS. Only corporations organized for certain charitable purposes (and some others) may apply. Substantial disclosures are required on annual tax filings, and transactions with officers & directors are carefully scrutinized for restrictions on self-dealing; that is, running a nonprofit for personal benefit, or stuffing what should be a taxable for-profit business under the guise of a charity. Those are big no-nos and you really don't want to bother with all that trouble.

As for the limitation of personal liability with an LLC structure: any lawyer worth her salt will go to the deepest pocket where they can potentially attach liability. If you are running an LLC record label/recording studio in your dad's house, and you sloppily run cables in a manner that causes a client to trip and injure himself, then:

- your LLC gets sued as the owner of the equipment and the contracting entity with the musician;
- you get sued because it was your personal negligence in laying the cable;
- your dad gets sued because it's his house and you are his minor child.

This is why a good lawyer would recommend not locating a commercial recording studio in a personal residence . . . at least without plenty of liability insurance that specifically covered business use of a home with clients at the residence . . .

I enjoyed reading this. I work with a lot of attorneys- mostly all real estate related. Though I'm not even close to being one myself, I "get" the jargon and process and can appreciate the thought that goes along.
Anyway a few questions that popped into my head...

1) Can a minor/child even "own" a business?

2) What "assets" does a highschool kid really need to protect anyway? I mean, he doesn't own his house or anything since he lives with his parents, and unless he's wealthy then I don't see much of a reason to try an protect anything... UNLESS his parents could be on the hook for any related liabilities?

3) Could he do work for hire (recording, pimping bands, whatever) without becoming an LLC or Corporation and simply claim any profits on his personal taxes? Could he still claim expenses (gear purchases, milage, etc) associated with his unofficial business?

4) if he were to continue to operate this from his parents house, would he be better off NOT to organize and file as a business in order to make an argument against your last point about the liabilities or operating business in a home?

Also, out of curiosity, what's your law background? You sound like you know what you're talking about (to me anyway, lol) Feel free to attach your disclaimer. :D
Merry Christmas!
 
Hey...do it like a high-school Junior Achievers business project. I'm not joking. If nothing else, turn it into school credit, and get some support also from your teachers/counselors. Like how many Junior Achievers started a record label in high-school.........??? :D

For the OP's situation I think miroslav's suggestion is perhaps the most practical for a 2 year business project before college.
 
Well, really he was just asking for some business advice rather than "legal advice"....however, there aren't many people here that are the type of people he wanted to ask (i.e. REAL studio owners...you know what I mean :D )

Most of the REAL studio owners are bankrupt.
 
Well, really he was just asking for some business advice rather than "legal advice"....however, there aren't many people here that are the type of people he wanted to ask (i.e. REAL studio owners...you know what I mean :D )

That's what I've been going for all along...
 
It will be a very expensive hobby unless you can turn a profit.
 
What exactly does "Independant" mean? little, and unconcerned with what other bigger record labels do? and puts out CDs or MP3 links and promotes bands to whoever will take it seriously enough to listen? Well in that case, just scrawl your agreements with the bands involved down and have them all sign them (bic pen, $0.25) get a business liscence or vendor license so you can legally sell stuff ($50-$100?) ... and get some gigs for your minions (free) or set up on internet groups like facebook or reverbnation ((very small fee to actually promote). So um yeah.. what does that term even mean? The only expensive part is the legal, tax form filling out-what-can-i-get-a-write-off side, and that isn't really necessary nobody needs a license to hand someone a CD in exchange for 10 bucks. It's just a cultural term for bands that aren't all massive all over radio and TV and stuff. Distribution is your own business, whether locally or nationally or just call local college radio stations and see what you can convince people to do. If its cool, it'll play, if they can. Theoretically SUBPOP, Alternative Tentacles, and K RECORDS are "independant" record labels. They also have/had a huge niche fan base., a LOT of capital to promote them. And then there's "FreeForAll" records who has a webpage on Soundcloud or something and a table set up at local clubs where their bands play. Just a silly concept.
 
This thread is a goldmine. Lots of interesting info! I've looked into setting up an indie label myself, a few years ago - a thought that's still in the back of my mind.
 
Calm down child, this is the internet. You can claim to be the Carl's Junior Hamburger God, have a Ph.D. in Astrogation from M.I.T., and have built your own nuclear fusion powered interstellar spaceship from neodymium magnets, toothpicks, and chocolate covered ants for all I care.

Luck.

Come on, we all know chocolate covered ants can't stand the gravitational forces of hyper-space acceleration. They're the wrong shape. Chocolate covered beetles however are spheroid
 
It will be a very expensive hobby unless you can turn a profit.

You can claim a loss for five years before the IRS will disallow all of your deductions and declare your 'business' a hobby. Businesses that involve horses however have seven years so I'd recommend that he work horses into his business model in some fashion. Since he's admitted to practice law before the bar at a relatively tender age perhaps he's sufficiently gifted as to teach horses to sing?

That'd make some money!

Come on, we all know chocolate covered ants can't stand the gravitational forces of hyper-space acceleration. They're the wrong shape. Chocolate covered beetles however are spheroid

;)
 
Hey...do it like a high-school Junior Achievers business project. I'm not joking. If nothing else, turn it into school credit, and get some support also from your teachers/counselors. Like how many Junior Achievers started a record label in high-school.........??? :D

That's actually what I ended up doing, if it's of any interest to any of you. I'm working with people in the school's ROP program to set it up.
 
Does it really matter if the guy is exaggerating his accomplishments or is totally genuine? It's an interesting discussion either way.

Back in the early 70s, here in Australia, a young fellow did pretty much what is being talked about. Initially he was legally 'underage' and was rumoured to have got away with a few errors and had some narrow escapes because of that. I can't vouch for the details or the truth of that, but he did build a very successful label and signed some of the country's top acts.

Lots fail, but some do succeed. So good luck with it.

Chris
 
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