How much difference does using different mixers make when using the same speakers?

G

gene12586

Member
Let's take 2 PA systems:

First let's take this Yamaha StagePas 600i here, which I own:
Specs:
usa.yamaha.com

STAGEPAS 400i/ 600i - Specs - Yamaha - United States

The new STAGEPAS 400i and 600i are the successors of the renowned STAGEPAS 300 and 500 which earned worldwide acclaim as compact, yet high-powered, portable PA systems with exceptional sound quality.
usa.yamaha.com usa.yamaha.com

Then let's take this Samson Expedition XP300:
Specs:

XP300 | Samson

The Expedition XP300 is an all-in-one sound system that delivers superior audio quality with quick and easy setup.
samsontech.com samsontech.com

So the StagePas is obviously the superior quality system... But I'm wondering how much of that comes fro the mixer vs. the speakers... Let me use a hypothetical example to ask this question:
Let's take two different configurations:
1) Configuration 1: Let's say I use the speakers that first I sing and play some guitar and input to the StagePas mixer which feeds into the StagePas speakers.
2) Configuration 2: Then let's say next I sing and play some guitar and input to the Samson mixer but I feed the signal into the StagePas speakers (instead of the Samson speakers) (I can do this right??)

So my main question is: if using the same speakers (in this case the StagePas speakers, which are superior to the Samson speakers), how much of a difference will using the StagePas mixer vs. the Samson mixer make in sound quality?

And a secondary 2 part question is (total newb question, sorry): Firstly, I take it I can run the mixer from one PA system (in this case, the Samson mixer) into the speakers for another PA system (in this case the StagePas speakers); is that correct? Secondly, assuming that's the case, how commonly is this kind of thing done?

Thanks!
 
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It's done all the time because traditionally you have a mixer or an amp and you buy some speakers. Sometimes the same make sometimes not. The usual rules are to make sure that you don't mismatch them - so you match the impedance, and the power. You don't use a high power amp to drive low power capable speakers, because at some point you will forget and maybe drive the system into crazy feedback at full power, and if the speakers cannot take this, that's bad. Equally, its rather pointless feeding high power speakers with low power amps, because big speaker drivers tend to soak up power, so they'll be quiet.

The two systems you describe are er, budget market products. The EV SX300 speakers are probably the best know plastic boxes, and everyone copied the designs - big driver for bass, 1" one for HF, and they sound OK, but they're not great. These are smaller, and bass lighter, and neither wonderfully good. They're OK for small bars and that kind of gig, but I'd not want to put bass or drums through them. Connection wise - they both have normal ¼" jacks - a connector reserved for low power PA use.

They're value for money, but I'd struggle to designate them quality PA gear. A duo with guitars and maybe a track system would find them OK, but when you turn the wellie up, the sound goes off quickly.
 
What Rob said.

You have two systems that are okay for acoustic solo/duo/trio acts. If the band has drums and amps, the PA systems you have may simply be unable to get loud enough, and they're very limited in terms of features.

One standard feature is the ability to make a separate mix of the inputs for the musicians. And these days that means every member gets their own custom mix. As a singer you need your voice loud and some keys to stay on pitch, but no guitar because his amp is more than loud enough. The drummer needs a lot of bass plus some keys and vocals. The keyboard player needs his keys in his monitor because he doesn't use an amp, plus his vocal a bit over other vocals so he can get his harmonies right. And so on.

All the sources go into one mixer which produces the main mix for the audience and some number of monitor (or aux) mixes for band members. The main and monitor mixes go out of the mixer at line level (typically XLR). These days it's pretty standard to use powered speakers (speakers with built-in amplifiers). The traditional way was connect the mixer to stacks of power amps and then go by speaker cable to passive speakers, but the concept was the same. Either way, you can scale the speaker system to the size of the venue but still use the same mixer. For rehearsal you just have monitors. For a small venue you add small mains ("small" but still bigger than your current systems). For a bigger venue you could rent bigger mains (though at that point there's a good chance it's all provided by a sound company).

In your systems, the amplifiers are built into the mixer, which is very limiting. You should really just use the speakers that came with the mixer module. There's no provision for monitor mixes except as a duplicate of what's going to the mains. It's probably fine for rehearsals, but I'm a strong advocate of rehearsing as you would perform, with stage monitors and separate mixes for each member.
 
rob aylestone said:
It's done all the time because traditionally you have a mixer or an amp and you buy some speakers. Sometimes the same make sometimes not. The usual rules are to make sure that you don't mismatch them - so you match the impedance, and the power. You don't use a high power amp to drive low power capable speakers, because at some point you will forget and maybe drive the system into crazy feedback at full power, and if the speakers cannot take this, that's bad. Equally, its rather pointless feeding high power speakers with low power amps, because big speaker drivers tend to soak up power, so they'll be quiet.

The two systems you describe are er, budget market products. The EV SX300 speakers are probably the best know plastic boxes, and everyone copied the designs - big driver for bass, 1" one for HF, and they sound OK, but they're not great. These are smaller, and bass lighter, and neither wonderfully good. They're OK for small bars and that kind of gig, but I'd not want to put bass or drums through them. Connection wise - they both have normal ¼" jacks - a connector reserved for low power PA use.

They're value for money, but I'd struggle to designate them quality PA gear. A duo with guitars and maybe a track system would find them OK, but when you turn the wellie up, the sound goes off quickly.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Makes sense.
Reason I asked is because I've owned a StagePas for years which I was gifted as my first mixer, and the first three inputs broke over the years (they give an awful hum/distortion sound when I turn the volume up even in the slightest on any of these channels)... though the fourth input is totally useable and sounds fine... which leads me to believe that it's the mixer that is damaged and not the speakers. Does that sound right? Is it just the mixer that's damaged?
So assuming it is in fact just the mixer that's damaged, I was thinking of trying to plug in a different mixer into the StagePas speakers. A friend of mine has a spare Samson XP300 mixer that came as part of the Samson XP300 PA system, and so that's why I asked about that mixer in particular.
I only use this mixer for rehearsal, which is typically just me doing vocals... Guitar goes through amp.
So this leads me back to my initial question: Will the Samson XP300 mixer plugged into the StagePas speakers sound as good as the StagePas mixer did into the Stagepas speakers?
If you think the XP300 into the StagePas speakers won't sound as good as the StagePas mixer did into the StagePas speakers, let me know if you have any recommendations for a new mixer I can buy for several hundred bucks that will give equivalent or better sound compared with the StagePas mixer plugged into the StagePas speakers.
Honestly, I would just buy a new StagePas mixer but it doesn't seem you can buy the mixer separately from the speakers.
Thanks.
 
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bouldersoundguy said:
What Rob said.

You have two systems that are okay for acoustic solo/duo/trio acts. If the band has drums and amps, the PA systems you have may simply be unable to get loud enough, and they're very limited in terms of features.

One standard feature is the ability to make a separate mix of the inputs for the musicians. And these days that means every member gets their own custom mix. As a singer you need your voice loud and some keys to stay on pitch, but no guitar because his amp is more than loud enough. The drummer needs a lot of bass plus some keys and vocals. The keyboard player needs his keys in his monitor because he doesn't use an amp, plus his vocal a bit over other vocals so he can get his harmonies right. And so on.

All the sources go into one mixer which produces the main mix for the audience and some number of monitor (or aux) mixes for band members. The main and monitor mixes go out of the mixer at line level (typically XLR). These days it's pretty standard to use powered speakers (speakers with built-in amplifiers). The traditional way was connect the mixer to stacks of power amps and then go by speaker cable to passive speakers, but the concept was the same. Either way, you can scale the speaker system to the size of the venue but still use the same mixer. For rehearsal you just have monitors. For a small venue you add small mains ("small" but still bigger than your current systems). For a bigger venue you could rent bigger mains (though at that point there's a good chance it's all provided by a sound company).

In your systems, the amplifiers are built into the mixer, which is very limiting. You should really just use the speakers that came with the mixer module. There's no provision for monitor mixes except as a duplicate of what's going to the mains. It's probably fine for rehearsals, but I'm a strong advocate of rehearsing as you would perform, with stage monitors and separate mixes for each member.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply. Makes sense.
Please see my reply to Rob above. Same reply and questions to you.
 
I doubt either of those two mixers has any real difference, quality wise. Both pretty standard products. Speakers make huge difference to the sound, the mixer, much, much less so. All you might notice is having to turn the volume up more, and that is where distortion creeps in. 50% on a powerful system doesn't stress it, but 100% will sound terrible if the volume available is worse. None of this stuff is destructive, so next rehaersal, just try it and see if it does what you need?
 
Yeah, most likely it will work fine. The only problem I see is if the amp in the replacement mixer is substantially weaker and you have to turn it way up to get the expected volume. That could produce distortion. If the amp is a lot stronger, you'll probably just stop turning it up when you get enough volume.
 
rob aylestone said:
I doubt either of those two mixers has any real difference, quality wise. Both pretty standard products. Speakers make huge difference to the sound, the mixer, much, much less so. All you might notice is having to turn the volume up more, and that is where distortion creeps in. 50% on a powerful system doesn't stress it, but 100% will sound terrible if the volume available is worse. None of this stuff is destructive, so next rehaersal, just try it and see if it does what you need?
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply. Makes sense. I'll give it a test.
When I'm comparing strength of the mixer via the specs, I'm looking at the output power of the amplifiers in the mixers right? In which case the StagePas mixer has 680 watts and the Samson has 300 Watts... So I'd need to turn the volume on the Samson up quite a bit more than I did on the StagPas to get the same amount of volume. Is that right?
 
bouldersoundguy said:
Yeah, most likely it will work fine. The only problem I see is if the amp in the replacement mixer is substantially weaker and you have to turn it way up to get the expected volume. That could produce distortion. If the amp is a lot stronger, you'll probably just stop turning it up when you get enough volume.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply. Please see my reply to Rob.
 
Yep - that's pretty much how it works - but remember that with these kind of systems, the speakers and amp are matched to work pretty well together, so squirting too much power into the speakers designed for lower power needs watching. In fairness, the speakers of this type change from OK sounding to nasty when you push too far, before it does any damage. Just listen properly and if they start to get rough or harsh, back off the level.
 
rob aylestone said:
Yep - that's pretty much how it works - but remember that with these kind of systems, the speakers and amp are matched to work pretty well together, so squirting too much power into the speakers designed for lower power needs watching. In fairness, the speakers of this type change from OK sounding to nasty when you push too far, before it does any damage. Just listen properly and if they start to get rough or harsh, back off the level.
Click to expand...
Thank you, makes sense.
 
Hi again Rob and Boulder... I just wanted to follow up on this thread to ask another related question.
Let's forget about the Samson and focus on a different possible scenario...
So again, let's say I have the StagePas PA system, and let's say that 3 of the 4 channels with mic inputs on the mixer are busted, leaving one working mic input channel and all of the channels with line inputs are fine as well. Could I do the following: Let's say I get a Yamaha MG10XU mixer, which is an unpowered mixer (specs below):

Then I plug my vocals mic into the MG10XU, and then I connect the MG10XU to either one of the line inputs or the remaining mic input from the StagePas mixer (if possible)... and then I output the StagePas mixer as usual to the StagePas speakers... It seems to me that in this scenario I'd be able to use the MG10XU as my mixer, and then I'd use the StagePas mixer as an amplifier. So several questions:
1) Am I right about this? Will this work from a basic functionality standpoint? If so, would I send the MG10XU to one of the line inputs or the remaining mic input on the StagePas mixer?
2) Would I have any loss in sound quality in doing this? Would this new setup with MG10XU>StagPas Mixer>StagePas speakers sound at least as good as when I used to sing with the StagePas mixer > StagePas speakers?

Any help is appreciated.
Thanks.
 
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As long as you're careful about your gain structure, it should work fine. I'd use the line input. If it's a model with stereo line inputs, that could come in handy with a more involved setup, especially if the mixer has monitor mixes.

What worries me is that those other inputs failed. I wouldn't trust the others to keep working.
 
If it's this damaged, then maybe it's time to bite the bullet and get something with more channels, a bit more volume and better speakers and everyone in the band can go through it. You've just outgrown it, and with just one channel left, you're bodging a workaround that will not be long lasting. Mixers rarely fail a channel at a time unless they've been abused, damaged or are going rusty inside. Losing one channel happens, but multiple channels? What happens if your line or single working mic inputs die like the others?
 
bouldersoundguy said:
As long as you're careful about your gain structure, it should work fine. I'd use the line input. If it's a model with stereo line inputs, that could come in handy with a more involved setup, especially if the mixer has monitor mixes.

What worries me is that those other inputs failed. I wouldn't trust the others to keep working.
Click to expand...
Thanks a lot. Makes sense.
Yeah, I also share your concern. I will likely just use it with the Samson for a while and see how that goes.
 
rob aylestone said:
If it's this damaged, then maybe it's time to bite the bullet and get something with more channels, a bit more volume and better speakers and everyone in the band can go through it. You've just outgrown it, and with just one channel left, you're bodging a workaround that will not be long lasting. Mixers rarely fail a channel at a time unless they've been abused, damaged or are going rusty inside. Losing one channel happens, but multiple channels? What happens if your line or single working mic inputs die like the others?
Click to expand...
Thanks Rob.
Yeah, as just mentioned in reply to Boulder... I will likely just use it with the Samson for a while and see how that goes. Then when I can manage I can just bite the bullet as you say.
 
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