How many units do you track with?

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dobro

dobro

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I need two channels of preamplification and compression, because I sing and play at the same time. How do you guys with drum kits manage?

One reason I'm asking is because I've been looking at channel strips recently that combine a pre, EQ and a compressor in one unit. Fair enough, but I would need at least two channel strips just to track myself. What if I added more players? How many channels/strips are you people using when you track?
 
Depending of course. But these days for bands other than myself, I record the drums using 7 channels and get the guitar player to play through the pod direct into the 8th channel of the soundcard (scratch track usually). I couldn't record more than that (obviously) unless I submixed the drums which I don't like to do.
 
Seven channels of a mixer, right? What do you use to gate/limit/compress/whatever the drums?
 
Actually 1 channel is a tube MP on the kick. The other 6 are on a Mackie 1402. I don't use any compression when tracking (don't have any :(). Well I have one, a super high end Ibanez UE405 multi-effects unit. :)

Do compression and gating after with Wave's plug-ins.
 
I use a Ramsa WR8210A 10 channel mixer on the drums and another WR 8210A for vocal and guitar mikes. I use Ashley compressors on the drums sometimes a DBX 160X on the overhang. I use a DBX 266 on the guitar and bass.I set the gate just high enough to cut the line noise.I mix it all down to a TASCAM M-2524 mixer.I dont use gates on drums exept if I want special effects on the snare.
 
Which reminds me (although this is off-topic) a guy called JohnD over at 3D audio came up with this recently, and it sparked a longish thread in which everyone seemed to know about it:

"In regards to

< I notice no convertors I see specs for have an analog front any better than 20-bit (122dB)>


That's because they can't be made any better than that. That's about the ceiling of current analog technology.

That's why all this 24 bit stuff is mostly just smoke and mirrors, especially for AD converters. The only reason to upgrade to 24
bit is if you have older converters, since the newer ones likely are more linear. But don't upgrade thinking you are going from 20
bit to 24 bit. You'll be lucky if you are even getting 19 bits!"

So I asked about it, but nobody's explained it to me. If I understand it rightly, 24-bit's great for processing, but the technology doesn't go past 20-bit for A/D conversion. Is that right?
 
The way I understand it, the dynamic range of 24-bits puts the theoretical noise floor at about the level of atomic noise. In the real world, internal thermal noise causes most converters to "self dither" down to about 20 bits of resolution. The DigiDo dither article mentions this phenomenon too.

I think the real reason to record at 24-bits instead of 20 or 16 is that you want more bits for internal processing when dealing with any DSP (that includes panning and volume changes in the digital domain). Most of the time, you're not done with your signal after your record it. If you have about 20 significant bits of signal, then the extra 4 bits help maintain the resolution while you're processing things.
 
Yup. Plus,with more bits from the getgo,you start off with a higher resolution sound even when the signal goes down several db on the meters which it will unless you're recording test tones.
 
dobro said:
I need two channels of preamplification and compression, because I sing and play at the same time. How do you guys with drum kits manage?
Click to expand...

Have have an 8-track tape, and manage well. The few times I use real drums, I'm recording it with two mics in stereo, one aimed at the snare and one aimed at the kick, far enough away so that the rest of the kit "bleeds" in by the right amount.
 
Well, the reason I need to compress (limit, actually) my vocal and guitar is that the mics are so close to each that I clip otherwise. So, regebro, you get away without compression by using distance between the kit and mics. In other words, it's really expensive to close mic a drum kit - even with one mic on kick, one on snare, and two overheads, that's still four channels of compression. Using RNCs, that's what? - $800? Nah, that's too rich for most of our mob. So, most of you 'distance' mic your drum kits?

Regebro, I checked out a couple of things at your website, but neither had a drum kit. Do any of those tunes there use the miking technique you mention?

[Edited by dobro on 09-18-2000 at 09:26]
 
You can get by without limiters if you set the gain low enough on the mic pre's to avoid peaks. This is easier to do if you have a very consistent drummer who doesn't exaggerate the dynamics (that drummer does not exist :D).

When I set drums levels, I second-guess the drummer and set the levels lower than the incoming signal would usually prescribe. Invariably, drummers play at one volume while sound-checking, and much louder after they start tracking. I have never had an exception to this. I also keep a close eye on the levels while they're playing and adjust the levels as needed (always lower, since they're always getting louder).

When I'm the drummer, I set a reasonable level (since I'm also the engineer) and try my hardest to keep the levels fairly consistent. I have blown plenty of takes by getting a little too "enthusiastic", though. I'd love some limiters to avoid surprise peaks, but I've managed to live without 'em with a little extra work and attention.
 
Nope, not yet dobro.
I did one recording with that technique, but I didn't bother to drum well, mostly because I was convinced i wouldn't be able to record a "4-piece" rock band type of recording all by my self, with my equipment, and still make it sound good. I don't even have an amp, so I have to line the guitar. :(

When I finished I was surprised to find that when I mixed it all down, it sounded much, much better than I had thought! So now I'm redoing it, but trying to do it well this time. :)
 
"Invariably, drummers play at one volume while sound-checking, and
much louder after they start tracking. I have never had an exception to this."

This is really interesting. Maybe, the more emotion you feel, the harder you hit something?

Anyway, so either distance or cutting the levels. Making do, in other words, rather than loads of gear. There's a thread in the Newbies forum right now about gating drums, and someone mentioned a couple of units that have 4 or 5 channels of gate. Anything similar for compression? Too expensive, right?
 
"So, most of you 'distance' mic your drum kits? "

Dobro, no I don't. I close mic toms/kick/snare. The most distant thing for me are the overheads. I don't use compression while tracking, but just set the levels carefully so that they are all hitting somewhere between -4 and -1. Takes a lot of time, but what doesn't. With a consistent drummer, or at least, making the drummer aware of trying to play consistent volume-wise (within reason, don't want a drum machine here) helps the most.

I notice PG pretty much already said this ... oh well.
 
Dobro,

I'm using two triggered Alesis DM5's into a TL Audio Valve Interface (8 channels of tube "warming") through 8 channels (Mackie 24-8 bus) into 8 tracks of 24 (Fostex D-160/D108 combo). I then compress/Gate each channel with various RNC's,Aphex, Joe Meek, DBX and Behringer units. I'd like to run all drum tracks through a PreSonus ACP88 instead of the Mackie pre's, bypassing the board on the way in, and eventually will ($). For all else, I track individually through a TL Audio Tube Pre, or a Joe Meek VC1Q, direct to hard drive. The Mackie gets used primarily for mixdown to a Masterlink. So far, drums and all sound fine.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, unless you're set up, and willing to submix/bus, it's tough to do much with a single strip when doing any "multiple-input" tracking live, unless you have the "multiple" units to run through. There are "creative' ways around this, and others around here would undoubtedly have suggestions, for me, the simple way is alos the most expensive...unfortunately.

Good luck.

BW
 
I always spell also "alos"...doesn't everybody :>/

To clarify one point above, when I refer to multiple input tracking live, I mean primarily instruments with "many" outputs, like a drum kit or machine, which are all tracked on individual channels at the same time...now isn't that "clearer"!

I need a break, best of luck,

BW
 
bwindsor - yup, that's what I thought, the choice is creative or expensive.

emeric - thought crosses my mind. I'm impressed at the good, good sound you got on your CD miking the drums close without a limiter or anything. But here's an anecdote: before I got a compressor, I had to be *very* controlled when I sang and played (I sing and play close up to the mics), because otherwise I'd clip all the time. The result was interesting, actually - a very controlled sound, and the restraint that was required added some tension to the performance of the songs. But when I got the compressor, I was able to relax and just sing and play without holding back all the time for fear of clipping - what a relief, plus I got way more tracks down.

Okay, what's my point? #1: your recent CD has a very controlled feel to it (this is good - good pop's mostly controlled), and this could easily be because of the restraint that was required in order to avoid clipping.
#2: if you ever want a sound that's less restrained, all you need to do is come up with the dough-ray-me to cover compression for drums and vox. Singer and drummer let it all out a bit, let it lay where it falls sort of thing, and everyone's ass is covered by the compressor.

A bit of rough for you, sir?
 
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