how many generations of mixes do you use?

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dobro

dobro

Well-known member
How many generations of mixes do you use? I use two - the first one takes care of levels, pans and EQ. The second one covers reverb and effects.

One reason I do it this way is cuz my system can handle buses and effects in real time if it's just EQ and compression. This is really handy, cuz if I don't like something later on, I just go back to the first generation mix and change the setting without having to do any destructive edits in Edit View. Nice.

But the pain in the bottom is the second generation mix, the one with reverb and so on. My computer can't handle full reverb in real time in Multitrack. (I mean, that's true for everybody, right?) It doesn't make sense to me to use quick verb in Multitrack if I'm going to use full reverb in the mixdown, cuz the sound is different. So I have to do destructive edits in Edit View using full reverb. That's the pain - if I decide to change something later on, it means one of two things: either building the whole mix up from the first generation all over again, or inserting new tracks into the generation 2 mix from generation 1, which is time-consuming.

I know that some people work around this a bit by cloning all the tracks within a session, and then just effecting one set. If they change their minds later, they just delete the effected track and bung in a new clone from the uneffected set. But my sessions are getting pretty big these days - often 400 MB or more - and doubling the size of a session makes things cumbersome and difficult to backup to CDRW etc.

Anybody got any thoughts on this?
 
I have abandoned CEP/AA for serious multi-track work, I just cannot get a decent track count out of it at 24/44.1 with effects unless I'm locking tracks, but then loading a session takes forever, so I tried the "save locked tracks with project" option and that helped with the loading times, but as in your case, the sessions are now twice as big as they should be, and even doing this CEP2.1 is still getting all choked up unless I have the buffer size and # of buffers so high that there is a major delay while making any adjustments during playback, then there is the dismal buss issue.

It is a pretty damn good destructive wave editor tho, I even bought the red rover with it because I really wanted to multi-track with it.
 
Is there a recording/mixing software that can handle major multitracking with realtime effects and which doesn't go slow, load slow, etc?
 
there sure is, dobro. but it's success all depends on what your computer can handle. you can have the hottest software, but if you can't support it with decent hardware, nothing will perform. what is your system like at the moment?
 
Strryder said:
I have abandoned CEP/AA for serious multi-track work, I just cannot get a decent track count out of it at 24/44.1 with effects unless I'm locking tracks, but then loading a session takes forever, so I tried the "save locked tracks with project" option and that helped with the loading times, but as in your case, the sessions are now twice as big as they should be, and even doing this CEP2.1 is still getting all choked up unless I have the buffer size and # of buffers so high that there is a major delay while making any adjustments during playback, then there is the dismal buss issue.

It is a pretty damn good destructive wave editor tho, I even bought the red rover with it because I really wanted to multi-track with it.
Click to expand...
Strryder - did you move to a different app for your multi-tracking work ? Which one ?
 
I used Sonar 2.2XL for a while, it worked much better for multi-tracking on my machine, an H/P laptop AthlonXP 1.8 ghz, with 1 gb ram, an inexpensive solution could be..
---------------------------------------------------

Cakewalk HomeStudio2, it is based on Sonar 2 and has pretty low system requirements, it'll do as many tracks as your machine can handle, but it does have a 24 real-time effects at once limitation.

Cakewalk Guitar Tracks Pro 3 only has 32 tracks but it ups the real-time effects to 32 at once, this one has no midi capability it's audio only, and needs winXP I think.

Both of these can use ASIO or WDM drivers, and will allow for low latency "live" input monitoring with effects while recording dry.
----------------------------------------------------
For a little more money the options get much better.


I currently use SAWStudio from RML Labs, there is an affordable 24 track basic version of it, ($300.00), this needs win2000/XP to run, but has very low system requirements, no built in midi, audio only, this is IMO excellent software, every channel of the virtual mixer has a 5 band EQ, and noise gate/compressor built in, VST/DX plugins are supported as well as the native SAWStudio plugins (real-time effects are only limited by your computer's ability), I have run 24 tracks on my laptop using the "slow" stock HD with..

24 compressor/gates
24 5 band EQ's
2 different reverbs on 2 aux busses
1 delay on another aux bus,
1 chorus on a 4th aux bus,
1 flanger on 1 track
3 delays on individual tracks

This was at 2.2ms latency without any problems, that's 24 tracks of audio and 56 real-time effects, this is serious stuff.

They have a demo for it at...

http://www.sawstudio.com/SAWStudio/SSBasic.htm

:)
 
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I've got a pretty okay machine: 1.7 GHz P4 with 512 RAM. It should be able to handle more than Cool 2.1 is handling now.

It's such a pain in the bum. Even with locked tracks, it's slow loading, and playback is dodgy sometimes. With locked tracks, there's backup problems for me as well, cuz I back up to CDRW and so sessions take us twice as much storage space, more burning to disk time, more than one disk per session etc.

You know, I'd rather spend the money on a new machine, not a new software. But if the new machine isn't even going to solve the problem...

I just ante'd up for Audition 1.5 too. Hm...
 
dobro,

Your machine is plenty powerfull enough to do some serious real-time multitrack work, I have tried everything I could do to get CEP2.1/AA1.0 to function at an acceptable level of performance on my machine, which is pretty close to your's on CPU speed, I think that the real problem is that CEP developed first as a destructive editor, and in that capacity it does a fine job, I can play 20 tracks at 16 bit with no real-time processing fine, but add in a realistic amount of real-time plugins (gotta count the channel EQ's as real-time effects), and use 32 bit instead of 16 and it's a whole other story, I think Syntrillium didn't have enough time to really get it working well for real-time effects before being bought out by Adobe, and I think Adobe probably won't put too much effort into making deep changes to the core functions of the program, they bought it for another reason.

I would suggest trying out the SAWStudio Basic demo, I'm not sure if having a 24 track limitation would be an issue for you, but I'd rather have 24 ass kicking tracks than 100 so so tracks any day, I'll give you a few tips in case you want to try it out.

Read the manual, there are a lot of capabilities in SS that are not sitting out in plain view, keystrokes and specific mouse controls are used to do a lot of the work, copy/drag/paste of both audio, and automation information as an example.

Check out the videos on the website, and watch the creator of the program put it to use, they're very educational, so are the online training tutorials.

SS doesn't use 32 bit floating point for it's internal processing like CEP/AA does, so you'll have to convert to 24 bit (packed) or 16 bit to import files from a CEP/AA session into SSB to try it out.

DX and VST plugins can't be automated, BUT, each one is contained in it's own "window" and that window has an on/off switch that can be automated, so it is possible to insert 4 or 6 of the same delay or flanger or whatever onto a track and set each one a little differently, then automate the "windows" to turn each plugin on or off at the proper times to get pretty close to full automation.

There are 6 aux busses, these can be used for not only effects send/return with plugins, but they can also be used to generate seperate headphone mixes, and they can also be used to send/return signals to outboard hardware effects units in sync with playback, the returns can also be recorded from outboard units in sync with the data on the multitrack.

The automation is the best I've ever used, you can automate almost every control on the virtual console, and it's fast to use, once you get the hang of it of course.

SS is hand coded in assembly language programming, it's a very lean program, and when it installs it doesn't touch the windows registry at all, it kind of "only uses what it needs to" so it isn't all bogged down like most other programs by windows complexity, to uninstall SS you simply delete the installed folder, easy as that.

I don't think it's ever taken more than 2-3 seconds to open a project for me, and when recording, it writes the wave files directly to the folder the project is based in, so after a good take you just hit save and, BAM! done, no more sitting there saving multiple tracks and waiting for each wave file to be saved one at a time, if you've ever recorded 8 to 16 seperate tracks for 1/2 an hour to 45 minutes then had to save them, you know what a drag this is CEP/AA.

I'll stop now.. I'm getting carried away!

If you have anymore questions, just ask.

:)
 
dobro said:
You know, I'd rather spend the money on a new machine, not a new software. But if the new machine isn't even going to solve the problem...

I just ante'd up for Audition 1.5 too. Hm...
Click to expand...

I've been thu my share of software that's for sure, it's taken me a couple of years and a lot of aggrievation to find something that works so well for me.

Here's what's sitting on my shelf not being used anymore, I bought all of 'em...

Cakewalk GuitarTracks 2
Cakewalk GuitarTracks Pro 2
Cakewalk Sonar 2.2XL
Magix Music Studio Deluxe 2004
Magix Samplitude Studio 6.0
Cool Edit Pro 2.1

CEP is the only one of these that I still use, I use it for mp3 and other file conversions, and for doing certain "forensic" type work such as noise reduction.

I guess ya live and ya learn, and some lessons cost a little money.. LOL!

Have you tried Kristal Audio Engine? it's a free 16 track program that's pretty cool, it has some bigtime limitations on how many VST effects you can run on a track, but it might give you an idea as to what kind of performance is possible with your machine, but then again it is a freebie, and there might be issues with it that a "real" program wouldn't have, it has 2 VST slots per track, plus a 3 band EQ per track, and 3 VST slots on the master out, so running all of 'em you got 51 real-time effects including the built in EQ's.

http://kristal.kreatives.org/

:)
 
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Hey, Strryder - thanks for the good description of your favorite software - that's intriguing. I'll try the demo if for no other reason than to compare. I've got more riding on this than software though - I'm still using Win 98 because I've got a soundcard that needs it I think - if I go to XP, I'll have to buy a new soundcard I think. So that would mean: SAWStudio + XP + soundcard. That's a lot of money. Careful consideration is required. :D

But I'll try the demo. You got me interested. Attractive features. (The software, not you LOL.)
 
Strryder said:
.....then there is the dismal buss issue.

QUOTE]


What exaclty is that?

I'm probably experiencing it, as I'm starting to mix my bands project that will probably end up with 24 to 35 tracks on every song. The one song that I have 2 busses on is starting to stagger and skip with 24 tracks running. And my computer is brand new with an athlon xp2800 and 1g of rAm. I've read in different places that cool edits mix downs "sound" better than other software.......so I'd hate to switch to another and be dissapointed. But if there is no remedy.....
Click to expand...
 
dobro,

You probably won't be able to run the demo on 98, I'm pretty sure it's gotta be 2000 or XP, I run XP on my laptop along with a MOTU 828mkII, but my old DAW was a P-III 600mhz with 384 ram running win2000 Professional and a Delta 1010, I could get around 18-20 tracks with SS on that rig, with 12-14 comps 18-20 5 band EQ's and a handfull (4-6) aux and track plugins, SS just SMOKED Sonar 2.2XL on that machine. I know it looks like I use too much compression but I use most of them only slightly, just to tame the peaks a little bit.
 
BIGD72,

CEP/AA seems to really not like using busses, I have seen this discussed before, but as far as how badly CEP will choke on them I'm not sure, the most I've ever used is 1 buss with all active tracks assigned to it so I could use it as an aux buss for feeding a main reverb plugin.

While it can do multiple output busses.. maybe??? it's got 'em, but it don't like 'em, and it can't route them, if they are used as subgroup outs into a single final output buss, and if you send a track to an output bus, you can't also send it to an aux bus, because there really aren't any real aux busses.

What the dismal buss issue is to me, is that CEP lacks "true" aux buss send/returns, like the type found on recording consoles, let's say you want a main reverb on aux 1, a chorus on aux 2, and a delay on aux 3, now say you want to feed 10 tracks to aux 1 for reverb, and you want to also feed 4 of those same tracks to aux 2 for chorus, and those same 4 tracks to aux 3 for delay... you just cannot do this with CEP/AA, instead of only needing to use 3 plugins on aux busses, you have to use 1 reverb on bus a, then the rest on individual tracks, so you end up using 9 effects altogether, what a shitty mixer! If you just applied all of your effects destructively, this kind of crap wouldn't be an issue, but in this day and age who wants to sit there tediously applying effects destructively, you know, try it, nope, undo, adjust effect, try it, nope, undo, adjust effect, try it, nope, undo, adjust effect, and so on, and so on.. If you want to keep your original tracks, that means copying them all so you can apply effects to the copies, this gives you session folders that are twice as big as they need to be, just like saving locked tracks.

This kind of stuff is just too restricting and annoying IMO to consider CEP/AA a serious multitrack program, there are much better options out there.

I do agree that CEP sounds really good on mixdown, it has a very good summing buss, but IMO SAWStudio's summing is even better.

SAWStudioBasic has 8 stereo I/O, so with a multiple I/O soundcard it can record up to 16 mono tracks at a time, and it gives you choices in how to setup your outputs, you can have 7 stereo subgroup busses all feeding into a single main output buss, or if you're using a hardware mixer you can feed 16 mono signals out to it, plus you have 6 aux send/return channels for effects, you can also send out multiple headphone mixes with real-time effects for monitoring while recording. I wish I had bought SS sooner, but when I got it the 300 dollar Basic version didn't exist, there was only the 1200 dollar "Lite" version and the 2500 dollar "Full" version, so I put it off for quite a while, but I'll say this, I finally bought the 2500 dollar "Full" version, and don't regret spending that money one little bit, I used to record with analog reel to reels and a 24x8 consoles, I have finally been able to get rid of that stuff and don't feel I am compromising my sound quality at all, I have replaced at least 10,000 dollars worth of actual hardware that I used to own with it, actually, not only replaced it, but far exceeded it.

Try the demo for your self, I used the demo for a whole month before plunking down my cash, I just imported all the tracks from a Sonar session and started mixing, the improvement in sound quality was the very first thing that struck me.

:)
 
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Strryder said:
BIGD72,

CEP/AA seems to really not like using busses, I have seen this discussed before, but as far as how badly CEP will choke on them I'm not sure, the most I've ever used is 1 buss with all active tracks assigned to it so I could use it as an aux buss for feeding a main reverb plugin.

While it can do multiple output busses.. maybe??? it's got 'em, but it don't like 'em, and it can't route them, if they are used as subgroup outs into a single final output buss, and if you send a track to an output bus, you can't also send it to an aux bus, because there really aren't any real aux busses.

What the dismal buss issue is to me, is that CEP lacks "true" aux buss send/returns, like the type found on recording consoles, let's say you want a main reverb on aux 1, a chorus on aux 2, and a delay on aux 3, now say you want to feed 10 tracks to aux 1 for reverb, and you want to also feed 4 of those same tracks to aux 2 for chorus, and those same 4 tracks to aux 3 for delay... you just cannot do this with CEP/AA, instead of only needing to use 3 plugins on aux busses, you have to use 1 reverb on bus a, then the rest on individual tracks, so you end up using 9 effects altogether, what a shitty mixer! If you just applied all of your effects destructively, this kind of crap wouldn't be an issue, but in this day and age who wants to sit there tediously applying effects destructively, you know, try it, nope, undo, adjust effect, try it, nope, undo, adjust effect, try it, nope, undo, adjust effect, and so on, and so on.. If you want to keep your original tracks, that means copying them all so you can apply effects to the copies, this gives you session folders that are twice as big as they need to be, just like saving locked tracks.

This kind of stuff is just too restricting and annoying IMO to consider CEP/AA a serious multitrack program, there are much better options out there.

I do agree that CEP sounds really good on mixdown, it has a very good summing buss, but IMO SAWStudio's summing is even better.

SAWStudioBasic has 8 stereo I/O, so with a multiple I/O soundcard it can record up to 16 mono tracks at a time, and it gives you choices in how to setup your outputs, you can have 7 stereo subgroup busses all feeding into a single main output buss, or if you're using a hardware mixer you can feed 16 mono signals out to it, plus you have 6 aux send/return channels for effects, you can also send out multiple headphone mixes with real-time effects for monitoring while recording. I wish I had bought SS sooner, but when I got it the 300 dollar Basic version didn't exist, there was only the 1200 dollar "Lite" version and the 2500 dollar "Full" version, so I put it off for quite a while, but I'll say this, I finally bought the 2500 dollar "Full" version, and don't regret spending that money one little bit, I used to record with analog reel to reels and a 24x8 consoles, I have finally been able to get rid of that stuff and don't feel I am compromising my sound quality at all, I have replaced at least 10,000 dollars worth of actual hardware that I used to own with it, actually, not only replaced it, but far exceeded it.

Try the demo for your self, I used the demo for a whole month before plunking down my cash, I just imported all the tracks from a Sonar session and started mixing, the improvement in sound quality was the very first thing that struck me.

:)
Click to expand...


I'm afraid to try the demo, because if I liked it, I can't afford to buy it. And I'll need more than 24 tracks, probably. I could submix some things, but that would defeat the purpose of buying $300 more worth of software. The fact that the full version is 2500 and the basic is $300 sounds a tad like they are gouging.

The buss issue you brought up is exactly the one I brought up a few weeks ago in a thread titled "buss into a buss" where I was trying to figure out how to do exactly what you described. I finally got my answer.
 
Yes - Adobe Audition 1.5 has that same buss issue for me. I have to change my work style a bit but track locking makes up for it. There are certain things with auxes that I just can't do though...and using different busses clogs things up big time, argh.

That's why I use Sonar3 also - what Audition doesn't have Sonar does...now in Sonar4 track locking is coming in as well as 32bit float native file support...

I'll keep both of them around and updated as they usually leap-frog each other feature-wise.
 
kylen said:
Yes - Adobe Audition 1.5 has that same buss issue for me. I have to change my work style a bit but track locking makes up for it. There are certain things with auxes that I just can't do though...and using different busses clogs things up big time, argh.

That's why I use Sonar3 also - what Audition doesn't have Sonar does...now in Sonar4 track locking is coming in as well as 32bit float native file support...

I'll keep both of them around and updated as they usually leap-frog each other feature-wise.
Click to expand...


How do the mix downs on sonar sound?
 
kylen said:
I like 'em a lot myself...

you can judge for yourself, over at their forum is a spot where people post their mixes:
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/default.asp
Click to expand...


How does Cakewalk home studio stack up? I don't do any midi or sequencing, so Sonar looks like it's geared more towards that . It was one of the main things that attracted me to cool edit at first........because I didn't have to wade through a bunch of crap I didn't want to use. I tried to use logic once......I couldn't even figure out how to get the friggin' thing started. Why is there a staff on my screen? :D I know, none of it is really that hard, but what i'm looking for in my software is the ability to mix many files, and for it to sound good. Period. Can home studio do this as well as Sonar, or no? I really did cool edits interface.....too bad it can't handle heavy duty production.
 
BIGD72,

HS2 is based on the Sonar 2 engine, and supposedly Sonar 3's engine was improved, but I never upgraded to 3, the big issue for you using HS would most likely be the 24 real-time effects at once limitation, if you're running 24 tracks with an EQ on each one, that's all you're gonna get.

If you wait a little longer, I bet they'll be releasing a HS3 pretty soon using Sonar 3's audio engine, they usually upgrade HS shortly after releasing a new version of Sonar, and Sonar 4 is right around the corner.
 
This is a great thread guys. I hadn't even heard of SS...

Looking at the AA demo one thing that's bugging me is how AA handles CrossFades in that you have to overlap. Here's how SS handles it, which is great. This is awesome guys! I'd need more than 24 tracks but then the program gets real expensive. I can dream about it though.

SAWStudio offers an innovative new technology called SoftEdge, which enhances and simplifies the ability to perform crossfades of multiple audio segments on the same track. Any audio segment (Region), may be given a SoftEdge value in milliseconds which automatically and non-destructively extends it's splice point boundaries in both directions, creating a perfect -6dB ramp live in real-time, with no background or pre-processing stem files written. This creates perfect crossfades across two butt-spliced Regions without the need for overlapping, which can compromise and complicate the ability to maintain sync at the splice-point. A special SoftEdge display overlay allows you to see the invisible overlap with down-to-the-sample accuracy.
 
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