How many bad songs do you have to write before you write a good one?

guitaristic said:
Hmmm I never really flesh out "bad" songs, but I do toss around a lot of ideas in my head. Probably only a third of those get written down. And probably out of those written down, maybe 20% are "good" to my tastes. I'm sure some are actually lame and I'm sure some I think are lame other people would really like, but that's how it goes when it's just you :D

I was watching Jools Holland interview Paul McCartney on his show the other day, and he asked Paul what his favorite songs he had ever written/co-wrote were. Paul started naming stuff like Eleanor Rigby, Blackbird, etc. Then he goes, "Oh yeah, Yesterday was a really good one. I dreamed that one. I literally dreamed it, woke up, and wrote it down."

I was like "Paul you bastard!!" I wish I could dream up beautiful songs like that. Some people get all the luck! :laughings:
Click to expand...

I get alot of ideas before I fall asleep, or when im waking up in the morning. Im not Mccartney, but you should always keep something to record nearby. I have dreamed songs but then couldnt quite remember them when I was awake. The mind is free from distraction during these times.

Mccartney originally had the lyrics "Scrambled Eggs, Oh, my baby how I love your legs", good thing he changed them!
 
DM60 said:
I assume we are really talking popular. One of the things I think for a popular song that is important is presentation.

"Spirits In The Night", made popular by Manfred Mann, written and first recorded by Bruce Springsteen. It was released for Greeting from Asbury Park and as a 45. I had never heard it until Manfred Mann picked it up and was one of their major hits. Funny, the B-side of the 45 was the song "For You" which was another hit by Manfred Mann.

I think you have to write and write and then write some more. Somewhere will be a nugget that others appreciate as well. I think there are bad songs, but how one knows is beyond me.
Click to expand...

Good and Bad is subjective among general listening audiences, but good crafted songs are not as subjective. if it's well crafted, it will be recognized by people who know the craft of songwriting. if it isnt, it wont be. Neither of which have any bearing on the success of the song. Most people dont like classical music, but to deny it's greatness is stupidity. The few that do like understand the art of it.

What people like doesnt say anything really, unless of course, you are only shooting for people to like it. Millions of people like Justin Bieber, that doesnt mean his songs are greatly crafted songs.
 
barry c said:
Think this question is based on that old Nashville idea that you must write 200 songs before you write a good one.
Click to expand...

Aye, it's a cutesy maxim, nothing more. Like "you have to kiss a hundred frogs before you find a prince" - it doesn't actually mean anything. It tries to apply a linear trajectory to something that's far too amorphous and a result of too many different factors.

From my point of view, a good song is the outcome of a good initial idea - a snippet of melody/a lyric/instrumental phrase or whatever. I don't think that you're any more or less likely to have another good idea because you've already written a ton of songs in the past. I don't necessarily think you need good technique to write a good song.

Mixing on the other hand is different. I think that's far more linear, as you pick up more technique as you go and do generally improve as you learn more about low end, mic placement etc etc..

If someone said, you have to mix a hundred songs before you mix a good one, I'd agree wholeheartedly. I've still got around 73 to go... ;)
 
robgreen said:
Aye, it's a cutesy maxim, nothing more. Like "you have to kiss a hundred frogs before you find a prince" - it doesn't actually mean anything. It tries to apply a linear trajectory to something that's far too amorphous and a result of too many different factors.

From my point of view, a good song is the outcome of a good initial idea - a snippet of melody/a lyric/instrumental phrase or whatever. I don't think that you're any more or less likely to have another good idea because you've already written a ton of songs in the past. I don't necessarily think you need good technique to write a good song.

Mixing on the other hand is different. I think that's far more linear, as you pick up more technique as you go and do generally improve as you learn more about low end, mic placement etc etc..

If someone said, you have to mix a hundred songs before you mix a good one, I'd agree wholeheartedly. I've still got around 73 to go... ;)
Click to expand...

I agree, I dont think there is any number of songs for anybody. As I wrote, I know a guy who's FIRST song was played on his local radio, been improving ever since.

Sometimes there are no reasons for liking something, we just do, but a songwriter with command of his craft will be able to write a similar song tommorow. People might not like it as much, but he still has to skill to do it.
 
barry c said:
if you know what is, they are not. What they are is entertaining.
Click to expand...

But, good/bad is subjective is the point.

While I can agree from my POV that his type of music is bad, there are many others that would disagree it is bad. I would further add, all music is entertaining as it servers no other purpose. Yes, you can say it provokes thought, insight, wisdom, lots of other things. I think it (can) enrich peoples lives. But boiled down, it is still just entertainment.

To be clear, I'm not defending his music, only the idea of good/bad. I'm not going to go buy a bunch of Beaver music just to prove a point.
 
DM60 said:
But, good/bad is subjective is the point.

While I can agree from my POV that his type of music is bad, there are many others that would disagree it is bad. I would further add, all music is entertaining as it servers no other purpose. Yes, you can say it provokes thought, insight, wisdom, lots of other things. I think it (can) enrich peoples lives. But boiled down, it is still just entertainment.

To be clear, I'm not defending his music, only the idea of good/bad. I'm not going to go buy a bunch of Beaver music just to prove a point.
Click to expand...

I know I went to college, I know what you were saying. What Im saying is good bad is subjective for likes and dislikes. But for skill it isnt,

If a guy runs a 40 yard dash in 4.1, nobody would ever call him slow. He's fast. Songwriting has fixed goodness about it too.

The way the lyric and melody join together is something a real songwriter will spend forever working on. The lyrics, from the first word to the last is
not just us liking it, it was laid out in a skillful way, so that the listener can take it in and experience it.

The structure used, the rhyme scheme, the meter, the prosody, all coupled with music that matches is, is very artistic. Somebody mentioned Springsteen. If you listen to the album Ghost of Tom Joad, it would bore many people to tears, but the stuff is well written, every lyric and every melody and every chord was used to an artistic purpose.

Yet, MILLIONS of people would rather listen to "what does the fox say" not because fox say is a well written song.

Many people love the Ramones and The clash, that doesnt mean that great musicans made the music, a musician knows this.
 
barry c said:
I know I went to college, I know what you were saying. What Im saying is good bad is subjective for likes and dislikes. But for skill it isnt,

If a guy runs a 40 yard dash in 4.1, nobody would ever call him slow. He's fast. Songwriting has fixed goodness about it too.

The way the lyric and melody join together is something a real songwriter will spend forever working on. The lyrics, from the first word to the last is
not just us liking it, it was laid out in a skillful way, so that the listener can take it in and experience it.

The structure used, the rhyme scheme, the meter, the prosody, all coupled with music that matches is, is very artistic. Somebody mentioned Springsteen. If you listen to the album Ghost of Tom Joad, it would bore many people to tears, but the stuff is well written, every lyric and every melody and every chord was used to an artistic purpose.

Yet, MILLIONS of people would rather listen to "what does the fox say" not because fox say is a well written song.

Many people love the Ramones and The clash, that doesnt mean that great musicans made the music, a musician knows this.
Click to expand...

Good/bad line just seems to shift and to say to song writers an old way is the only way, just keeps them from creating a new or different way. Kills the art of discovery, which really is the root of all music.

Some go for tried and true, others hear something different and want others to hear it. We shouldn't discourage that or else we will be the ones who are saying "the world is flat" and "lobotomies help the mentally disturbed".
 
DM60 said:
Good/bad line just seems to shift and to say to song writers an old way is the only way, just keeps them from creating a new or different way. Kills the art of discovery, which really is the root of all music.

Some go for tried and true, others hear something different and want others to hear it. We shouldn't discourage that or else we will be the ones who are saying "the world is flat" and "lobotomies help the mentally disturbed".
Click to expand...

LOL, now you changing the arguments. Old new, does not matter a song is a song. Producing and recording a song is a different animal, and that's usually the selling point of the song, but we were discussing good/bad songs. I agree that good and bad is in the ear of the beholder, but that doesnt mean that the ear of the beholder knows the fundamentals of a well written song.

I too mostly go with what I like as a measuring stick, but I know from years of doing this, that greatness and shit exists in stuff I dont like and stuff I like. it;s a cerebral thing, not an emotional one.
 
Very interesting question!

I think I am good at songwriting (lyrics, melody, chord changes) and arranging.
Not so good at singing and mixing.

Just my self-assessment, so who knows.

I only started writing songs two years ago. I think I've come a long way since then. My lyrics have become more complex and less cliche. My song structures are sometimes unusual. I think as I've gained confidence I've felt brave enough to stray from the way things are usually done.

I was really afraid to start writing music because I was pretty sure I'd suck at it and embarrass myself. I was pleasantly surprised that actually it seemed to come really quickly and naturally to me. I started playing the piano early, and I was in a ton of bands and orchestras in high school. I've always sort of listened analytically to music on the radio, so all those things helped.

Looking back at my first songs I think they were good but kind of like I was imitating other songs I had heard. Not so much expressing something that I had to say.
 
barry c said:
The masters of classical music were great. it;s not inheritantly great, it's greatness acheived through hard work, inspiration and craft
Click to expand...

Mmm, don't forget money. Most of that classic baroque stuff was commissioned for kings and church authorities...hence the pomp and grandeur. Skilled musicians sure, but I think the majority of what was documented and preserved from that period has the emotional impact of a Toyota commercial.
 
fat_fleet said:
but I think the majority of what was documented and preserved from that period has the emotional impact of a Toyota commercial.
Click to expand...
That's kind of unfair but it does bring out one very important point ~ many if not most people that write songs know how to repeat themselves in different ways when necessary......
 
I know I went to college, I know what you were saying.

I'm glad you know you went to college Barry.
Maybe a little more time spent on the placement of a comma would help in making that point.
What does college mean where you come from? It means tertiary education, (university etc), in Australia. I believe it suggests something different in other parts of the world.
 
rayc said:
I know I went to college, I know what you were saying.

I'm glad you know you went to college Barry.
Maybe a little more time spent on the placement of a comma would help in making that point.
What does college mean where you come from? It means tertiary education, (university etc), in Australia. I believe it suggests something different in other parts of the world.
Click to expand...

it means, I know that when the man says he's not defending Bieber, that I know that he is not, and doesnt need to explain it.

Btw, dont start a sentence with maybe. Maybe a little more time spent on the placement of a comma would help in making that point.
 
fat_fleet said:
Mmm, don't forget money. Most of that classic baroque stuff was commissioned for kings and church authorities...hence the pomp and grandeur. Skilled musicians sure, but I think the majority of what was documented and preserved from that period has the emotional impact of a Toyota commercial.
Click to expand...

You can write great music while still making money doing it. You can also do neither.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top