How hot is too hot?

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vicevursa

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I am recording line level sources (keyboards, drum machines) and soft synths. I run everything into a mixer and from there into my soundcard. On the mixer I keep my transient peaks around +6dB and continous signals right below 0dB. (Why? Because I read that somewhere, I believe in my mixer's manual.) In Sonar I keep all faders at 0dB while recording. Is this correct? Should I lower them now while tracking to make room for things like reverb, or do I make ajustments in Sonar after I record my tracks and begin to add effects and stuff? When I record into Sonar I use peaks never hit 0dB (which has taken me forever to figure out how to do that), but no when I do anything else to the track my normal everyday crap turns into a superior grade of crap now. Help! What is it about this recodring business am I not grasping. I realize that if I add something to the tracks' overall signal its level goes up, but when I lower the tracks volume to compensate the whole mix suffers. Is compression the key? I have been reading countless threads on the perils of normalization, but I don't want to lose to much of the dynamic structure of the original program material...

Your comments are most welcomed.


Vice
 
vicevursa said:
........but no when I do anything else to the track my normal everyday crap turns into a superior grade of crap now....
Click to expand...

Well, I am definately a newbie here, but what I have learned is this.....

If you have crap coming in, changing the crap will only give you more mangled crap....I have heard it stated "crap in, crap out"

It seems like rule #1 is, get the best sound you can get IN. The key to quality seems to lie there first and foremost.

So I guess I have no real advice for you, except, find out where your weaks spots are for incoming audio (and monitoring your incomint audio). I think only by improving there, will effects have anything "worthwhile" to add to your audio.

Thats all I got...good luck
 
Thanks RichHead (Nice name, Dick!) :D

I completely agree with you on the GIGO theory - garbage in garbage out

I guess what I am asking is how hot do you record your tracks. I could push my tracks to right below 0dB, but that leaves very little wiggle room when I want to put effects or something. Is -3 or -6dB hot enough? The tracks seem so quiet at that level.

Vice
 
I usually let peaks hit -3 to -1, and continuous audio somewhere between -12 and -6. Thats plenty hot for me

im limited to those numbers by the leds on my motu, but that should be specific enough
 
the volume that you record at has very little bearing on the level that you mix it at. you can always lower the volume in mixing, but usually the most important thing is to get a nice strong signal going into your first A-D conversion (but avoiding clipping, obviously), so you have good bit depth. if you have to significantly raise the levels digitally, you'll lose some sound quality.
 
vicevursa said:
In Sonar I keep all faders at 0dB while recording. Is this correct? Should I lower them now while tracking to make room for things like reverb, or do I make ajustments in Sonar after I record my tracks and begin to add effects and stuff?
Click to expand...

The idea is to have all faders at 0db and to use Gain (or in SONAR's case trim) to get a sound that sits will in the mix.

The reason for recording with the faders at 0db is so that anyone can walk up to a console (or in this case program), set all the track faders to 0db to get an idea of how the song will sound.

You can adjust the level of the track via the fader, using the compressor... that will increase the levels, or in Sonar using the Increase 3db or the Normalise. Using them in that order... maybe the compressor later in the chain..

Porter
 
Hmm. I'm going to go with some contrary opinions.:eek:
The mixer levels seem ok (-0 +6) as long as you're including all of its stages -pre amp and main buss level (if you're using the mains.) Same with staying below zero on the digital side.
However, the track fader levels in Sonar have no effect on the record levels. You can trun them off while recording, it wouldn't matter.
So if you're getting decent levels in, and distortion is not the issue, that brings us to, why would turning down tracks on playback suffer the mix?
Generally, if you record all your tracks fairly hot, you may need to bring most of the faders down a bit to keep from overloading the stereo buss, depending on how many tracks, how hot, ect. This alone shouldn't have much effect on the overall sound, and there is some built in head room -I believe if you record a track at max (zero) you can still add +6 at the fader or eq's or whatever, w/o clipping. And there is apperently also some extra headroom in the mains buss. Try your meters is 'Pre fader' position when in doubt.

:)
Wayne
 
Everything I've read tells me to record each track as hot as possible without clipping and then after all tracks are recorded as audio start the mixing process. Your stereo mix should leave some headroom for mastering.
 
Thanks everyone for replying. Mixsit, Blue Bear I am beginning to understand the concept of overloading the stereo buss. I think the scenario described in the article is what I am trying to describe.

Blue Bear, after reading your article, I am wondering if in fact I actually need to be recording through my mixer at all. I am only recording line level inputs as it is. Would it be better if I went straight from instruments into the soundcard?

Thanks,
Vice
 
vicevursa said:
I am only recording line level inputs as it is. Would it be better if I went straight from instruments into the soundcard?
Click to expand...

Your best bet is to try it and see. If you don't need any extra gain or EQ then it will probably be a cleaner signal path.
 
I will give it a shot tomorrow morning and let you all know how it goes. But, since I last posted I think I have already talked myself into keeping the mixer in the chain. The mixer allows me to hear all of my boards and drum machine at once. But, I can get something useable going straight into the card, my next question will be "Where do I plug the monitor speakers without a mixer?"


Vice
 
Or just bypass the mixer on the way in when it's convenient.
On my mackie, the line-in still goes through the preamp which presumably means it's dumping signal at a pad and then boosting it back up to it's internal level. Direct out's is another spot to skip some added buss circuits.
Wayne
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. What I have decided to do is try to work around the issues I think I have with the stereo buss. I have other questions, now. Currently, I am recording at 16bit/44k, will recording at 24bit/96k make a difference as far as the stereo buss is concerned? Will I run into problems overloading it? Or am I now mixing apples and oranges?

Vice
 
vicevursa said:
Thanks everyone for your responses. What I have decided to do is try to work around the issues I think I have with the stereo buss. I have other questions, now. Currently, I am recording at 16bit/44k, will recording at 24bit/96k make a difference as far as the stereo buss is concerned? Will I run into problems overloading it? Or am I now mixing apples and oranges?

Vice
Click to expand...

record at 24bit / whatever,,,, just move up from 16bit

Malcolm
 
Volts is volts.
More bits just extends your dynamic range by lowering the noise level. Higher sample rate just extends high frequency response.
Wayne
 
Let me see if I am understanding this... When dealing with the stereo buss, it's not concerned with how much your noise floor is, because at that point it is already incorporated into the signal. It's looking at the overall completed mix, right?

I hope I am right or I might be totally confused....


Vice
 
Bits are not just bits. You want to record at 24 bits. I'm not going to go into the reason why because there is an already excellent explanation for it. Use the search, and record at 24 bits.
 
vicevursa said:
Let me see if I am understanding this... When dealing with the stereo buss, it's not concerned with how much your noise floor is, because at that point it is already incorporated into the signal. It's looking at the overall completed mix, right?

I hope I am right or I might be totally confused....
Vice
Click to expand...

If wer're still talking about combining signals and overload, I was making the generalization that assuming equal signal strengths at a given reference level, between two systems, one at a lower and another at a higher bit and sample rate, the combined signal would be the same. (if -6db FS equaled x voltage, it wouldn't matter how many bits extended below.)
There could be a bit(:D ) more to it than that -I fully expect to be corrected if so.:)
Wayne
 
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