How happy should the artist be?

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MrLip

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Here's the scenerio:

I'm producing a song written by this girl who sings and plays the piano. The song is for a compilation album that we're making at my university (practically 0 budget, we're doing almost everything by ourselves.) The original demo was simply a piano demo; just her singing with a simple piano accompaniment. So I asked her if she would mind me arranging it a little (ie. adding drums, bass, etc.) She said that's fine with her. The song is a mid-tempo pop-jazz tune.

So, I had her play her piano part on a keyboard and tracked as a MIDI track. I took the midi file home, imported it into Cakewalk and assigned it to a piano patch on my Roland JV-1010. Then spent hours editing it, fixing all her mistakes and bad timing (not much fun.) Then I had a drummer friend of mine come in and sequence a drum part using some of my samples and some of the drum sounds on my JV-1010.

When it was about 80% finished, I made a tape for her to listen to. She was OK with it but she said that she wasn't completely satisfied with the piano sound and asked if she could go into a studio and play a real piano.

Now, a couple questions:

#1. What's wrong with my piano sound? I used the "9ft Grand 1" patch on my Roland JV. It sounds fine to me! Is she being too picky? I haven't mixed or added any effects (such as reverb) yet, maybe that has something to do with it. The part is very simple, mostly just chords and very little melodic playing which leads to the next question:

#2. Should I let her go into a studio? She's willing to pay for it herself, but it's just a simple rhythm part, and plus, her playing on the keyboard I recorded was pretty shakey. In fact, I had to do it twice. The first time I had her come in to play it, I wasn't too picky because I just figured I could go home and edit the MIDI, BUT it turned out to be too much work. So I had her go practice with a metronome and then re-recorded the part, and even then I still had to edit. If we were to go into the studio, I would have to be pretty damn sure she can play the part pretty damn near perfectly, right? Because if we record a real piano, I'll be coming home with an AUDIO track which is alot more difficult to edit.

#3. How about the drums? If we were going to go into the studio for any reason at all, to me, it makes the most sense to record live DRUMS, not live piano. Her piano part is a simple rhythm part in which, at least to me, the patches on my JV-1010 will suffice. I feel that if we're going to go into the studio to track anything at all (which I was trying to stay away from, just to keep things simple, and to keep costs down) we might as well do live drums too.

Which leads to another question:

#4. If I were to do live drums and live piano, should I complete the song using MIDI first and then later go in to the studio to replace the existing MIDI tracks (for example, sequence and record everything first (including vocals, guitars, etc.), and then go back and redo the drums and piano in the studio) or should I go back and do the live piano and drum tracks first before continuing tracking the other parts of the song?

Sorry this post has gotten pretty long and tedious. I'm a little lost myself.

I'm sort of in a dilemma. I want her (the artist) to be happy, but at the same time, we obviously don't agree with each other. So.... what should I do?

Here are my options:

A. Stick to 'my way' using as much MIDI as possible. (Less money, increased editing capabilities, less artist-satisfaction, low risk)
B. Do it 'her way' and track live piano (more artist-satisfaction, more money, decreased editing, high risk)
C. Track live piano AND live drums (more artist-satisfaction, more money, decreased editing, and if we're going to track piano we might as well track drums as well, high risk)

In the end, I have the final say as I am pretty much in charge of this project. Just wondering what you guys think I should do.
 
Thats a tough call....as an artist, I guess I would be concerned.....

But if you are the producer, you know what you gotta do.....myself Id give her a shot at option B, letting her know that youll resort to option A if it doesnt work....on a low $$$$ budget, I wouldnt consider doing live drums.....I would have her record with the actual drum track as it may help her out......if needed, you could consider having someone who plays well play the part for her in the studio.....it wouldnt be the first time an artist didnt play on their own recording.......

so now ive just added option D....lay down the drum track first and let an experience keyboard player cut the piano track, either in studio or to Midi.......
 
I've heard the patches and samples of a number of moderately-expensive Roland digital pianos (in the $2.5-3K) and while I found them more than adequate in a live settings, they are barely tolerable in the studio - these ARE good patches, but under the microscope of the control room, they are easily distinguishable from "the real thing!" - usually in their decay. The samples almost always have an additional ringing decay that is not present in an actual piano sound.

So, that being said, maybe your artist does have a point about the sonics - and she has exceptional ears, but your job as producer is to convince her that the benefits of going with the "lesser sound quality" outweigh the small benefits of re-cutting the piano track.

Bruce
 
The fact is she is an artist.But the fact also is that YOU are an artist.If I am understanding this right,you are the producer as well as being the engineer.You should BOTH be satisfied or at least in consensus.I think that you have already let her know that her piano playing abilities are not as "tight" as you would like them to be,and if her tempo and performance problems are not artistic expressions,maybe she should consider using the power of MIDI editing to accomidate the recording.I do understand her wanting to play the part herself,as a guitar player I often play my own parts even though I know there are a lot better players available to me that would be glad to track it.Be patient,and remember to keep her motivated during recording and set the mood right with good positive attitude and maybe some special lighting or candles and BOTH of you have fun and try it again.


Monty Neese,
 
Use everything that you've done so far as preproduction.Haveing her play to a click and not the drum program first was kinda a mistake its too easy to push and pull against to click..however a drum program is easier to play and keep time with for some one who is not the primary rthm. instrament{drums}.Your production goals and buget will tell you if you need to track live piano and drums.If you are the producer it up to you to get this projet in on buget what ever that is ,even if that means moveing it around to different studios to get the most value for your money ,that is sometimes half the job.For the sound issue on the piano if this is not a dense track you cant hide a sample.IF your buget can allow option C is the one I would use.
Finish the preproduction version first ..what ever instraments track em.Most importantly the Vox, the better your preproduction on vocals and such the better they will finish in the end.This will give you some practice with her for the final vocal..The more she does this song the more you can get into the finer points of her performance.. emotion of the lyric..tenshion and release and your plan on how to guide her ,get the best final performance that you can as a producer this is probobly your most important function!Sit down with the talent talk to them get everyone on the same page..Good luck


Don
 
if you're correcting timing problems, be carefull not to quantize too much. using a sound module piano sound and hard quantizing will definitely loose the feel of a real performance.
 
To me, it basically sounds like this piano player really sucks...but maybe she can sing. Additionally, it sounds like she has zero knowledge of the intracacies of recording. I have seen people like this who try to *appear* to be better than they actually are, by critisizing certain items that they did not have control over....like in this case, the sound. Did she like the performance "fixes" that you did...?...or did she even notice them? I would guess...she didnt even notice them....or even comment....unless you pointed them out to her...which is a touchy situation in itself--pointing out her *corrected mistakes*!!. In this case, since you are the boss, it appears you need to take the upper hand, convince her somehow that the final result WILL be better, and that she should let you do your job. She probably will still find things to *pick at* when it is done, however...(for the reason I alluded to earlier). Yeah...you want to please the artist, but you're the boss this time, it seems. If she was a paying client...she's the boss...she decides, she pays, ...but still sucks, but goes home happy. If she wants to spend the cash...everyone has the time...lay some drums down, let her record her pno. part to them, and then let her hear the playback. My bet is the playing mistakes will still be there, MUCH harder to correct, she'll be happier, but the "simple" pno. parts will still suffer. Your roland should provide quality enough sounds, VS the opinions of others...especially in a mix. You are not looking for a solo Bosendorfer...my gawd!!...just a simple pno. comping in a tune. I would guess GREAT piano sounds would be "out of her league" anyway, too.
 
Gidge: That's a good idea. I didn't think about getting someone else to play. Thing is, is that she's been playing all her life and is actually 'known' to be a pretty good piano player. I guess that's as far as reputations go! Before we started recording I asked her if she would be playing the piano part herself, assuming that she was good. In actuality, she IS a very good musician. She has a very good ear, sings very well, and writes nice songs, but I just think she's lazy when it comes to practicing, hence her sloppy piano playing. This is something I'll have to think about and possibly talk to her about.

Blue Bear: Yes, like I said above, she does have very good ear. I will have to talk to her about the cost-vs-benefits of tracking a real piano.

vulcanofga: YES! Keep her motivated! That's tough, especially when I've already had her redo her piano track twice!

Henri Devill: Yes, I think I will continue with the song as 'preproduction' and then later go back and change anything that's not up to par.

LongWaveStudio: Good point, I'm aware of this. I 'quantize' by manually editing the MIDI data. It takes a while but it sounds much more natural than using the quantization feature in my software.

mixmkr: Yeah, I don't think she knows anything about recording either. And I don't think she realized how bad her timing was. BUT like someone said, it was a mistake of me to have to play to a click track, but at the time I hadn't done the drum track yet, and I didn't want to do the drum track until I had some kind of structural reference to the song.

I guess I will talk to her and somehow try to get the idea across that her playing does require a certain amount of editing that won't be possible with real piano, and will talk to her about the other options and possibilities. Just hope she doesn't start thinking of me as a tight-ass jerk-off! because, she, apparently, is much more laidback about this whole thing than I am. Too laid back if you ask me... Anyway....

Thanks for all your help guys.
 
If she chooses to play the thing again, make sure she records with a click track, to save you a lot of bother.
 
another idea

Hey, you could always just tell her that she'll be happy with it, or she can be replaced by the demo on your little nephew's Casio keyboard, and and overdub of you enthusiastically hitting an oatmeal box with a stick...

and play with a click track!

But seriously, if she is used to playing a real piano, a keyboard might have thrown her off. I consider them to be totally different, (especially in the touch) and I'll be honest, I'm usually not very happy with MIDI either. It can be useful, but I don't see the point in "emulating" something that already exists. Face it, MIDI is NOT a piano. Let MIDI do things a piano can't do, or that a piano player can't do. But don't make it mimic. Ease in editing aside, to anyone who is familiar with their instrument, MIDI usually feels incredibly false.

This gal may also have a problem with people thinking that is her "sound", and associating her with it instead of a regular piano. Let her try the regular piano, but emphasize that you have a "fallback" on the MIDI... if she dislikes it that much, it should be a good incentive to play well.

DaveX
 
An artist should be happy - if he / she does happy music

An artist should be sad - if its sad music

In this case, hope its sad and make her miserable, the music will be the better fro it :)
 
Re: another idea

DaveX said:
..........and I'll be honest, I'm usually not very happy with MIDI either. It can be useful, but I don't see the point in "emulating" something that already exists. Face it, MIDI is NOT a piano.
DaveX
Click to expand...

no...it aint...but carrying around a portable keyboard sures beats counting on an [potentially crappy out of tune] piano, that can weigh a ton when it comes to moving time!! ...especially when blended with other instruments. solo recitals....MIDI=yuck!! Yeah...B3's look cool on stage, but I aint movin' 'em anymore!!
 
Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I've had her playing to a click track all along. Even with that, her timing is pretty off. That's why I'm so afraid of tracking a real piano that I won't be able to 'fix'.

"hope its sad and make her miserable" sjoko -- I'll keep this in mind ;)
 
Hey Mr Lip..Hows it going man?Really try one more time with her playing to the programed drums...She might surprise you!Sometimes a click is wrong for muscians who aren't drummers..There are drummers who have a hard time playing to a click alone!Producing is all about finding a way to get the job done.Dont go to far in pointing out about her timeing to her{with the click}you have to modivate, take her mind off it..get into things like feel ,some of the intageables emotion,imagey..Also joke with her before she does her take..Smile!If you make the session feel lite you will be surprised how much better she will do!If she belives you she will go to "war" for you!And now she will trust you and your opinions..So use the drum pro.and go for the best that she can give!When you "produce" you gotta be part therepist part arranger ect. You are the glue that holds the project together!Good luck..

Don
 
I would either bring in somebody to play, as Gidge suggested, or what about micing one of those MIDI player pianos? You still get the better timing with MIDI and you'd definitely get a better sound than the Roland. Also, have you tried some of the sample-based pianos? Like SampleTank FreePiano or MDA Piano.
 
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