How far should I take a song before handing over to the producer?

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Elapses

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Scenario: I am working on some demo material to take to a studio and record professionally. The aim is to have a professional ep I can sell independantly, which can also be used to give A&R's, venues, labels, etc. I want to bring a producer to the studio to assist.

Question: How far should I take a song before handing over to the producer? (when I say "handing over" - I mean letting him start making decisions and suggestions about the musical direction)

I have recorded a drum loop, created a rough structure verse/choruses etc, the guitar rythm and progressions (no bridge yet...) Vocal melodies/ harmonies sketched out, and lyrics 99% finished...

I am hesitant to refine the song any more in case the producer wants to add changes to the structure, or melodies etc. But am not sure if I should be fleshing the song out further before taking it to him..

If there are any professional (or knowledgable) producers reading this, what level of song do you ideally want an artist to bring to the studio when working with them?

Cheers!
 
...and whilst we are on the subject, why isn't there a "Producing" forum on this site?? I know most of the subjects are covered - but it would still be vastly helpful I feel to have a den for producers to hide in.... Anyhoo..
 
I take it you have a producer in mind that you wish to hire (and presumably has already expressed at least some interest in producing you). If that be the case, I think the short answer is to ask them what they want.

It sounds as though you are acting as a solo songwriter/musician and not a pre-assembled band. In such a case, I also take it that the producer will want/need to assemble ether public performers or studio cats to actually make the recording or back you up on the recording. (Stop me if/when I'm wrong.)

If that is the case, he's going strictly on the song itself, and maybe your vocals or your particular specialty instrument, if those are going to be part of the recording (that can be his call too, actually). In that case my edumacated guess would be just to make your demo as simple as possible; you and an acoustic guitar or whatever you play, and let him decide which direction to build it.

The alternative would be for you to continue building your idea of the arrangement track by track. In essence, the more you work on it, the more you're giving your suggestion as to what kind of direction you want the production to take. Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, and maybe the producer would actually want that. But maybe not; that bias could turn him off as well as it could turn him on.

Which brings us right back to the short answer again ;).

G.
 
It's a complicated story... I have a few producers inmind, I haven't spoken with them yet.. I have been saving/mulling (for far too long) over what to do..

So I will be co-producing the track as well as writing. When you are an independant artist you don't have the luxury (i.e: BUDGET) to afford to be paying a producer to find (and then pay) musicians for you. So I will be bringing the musos to the session. I know some players, and will hire a couple to get it done.

I have a band - but I am looking to get session musos to complete the recordings as the band isn't able to practise often enough, and they are not too confident in their own writing abilities for the genre. But yes - I write the songs (I am a guitarist - of sorts)

I guess being the client I have the ultimate veto power, and I beleive I know what sounds right for a song - I'm not just an ego-maniac control freak.. I will always back down on a valid point if I'm wrong. But it is really hard thinking about letting someone take your songs in a new direction... It's a trust thing I think... I'm afraid to relinquish control...

Maybe it's a shrink I need - not a producer :p
 
Elapses said:
I will be co-producing the track
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The hardest pat, frankly, will be finding a producer worth his/her salt that will be willing to both take you on and agree to your conditions of co-production. Maybe it's different down there on Faraway Downs (;)), but IME, finding a quality indie producer that, unless it's a form of nepotistic reachout, isn't very picky about what he puts his name on is very hard to do. They had better see something in your material and/or your personality that really makes them want to take you on as a project.

You're also kind of turning the typical process kind of inside-out. The old-fashioned way of doing it is to get the attention of A&R first, and if they like what they see/hear, they'll start mentioning your name to some producers. To get a producer first in order to make a demo to send to A&R is kind of backwards, most pro producers won't even listen to a demo that hasn't been recommended by an a&R guy first.

Based upon this new info, I'd say you have three choices. The first is to make the best quality demo you can, producing it yourself. And using that to send out to A&R and to clubs to get gigs. But it's got to be a demo of something reproducable - i.e. of an actual act. If your band can't get together often enough to take it seriously, then you have nothing to demo.

The second would be to record and produce everything yourself as a one man studio composer/recorder/producer, making a demo or initial release to get out on meSpace and meTube and hope to get "discovered" while you sell copies of the CD to anybody who's interested out of the trunk of your car.

The third would be to sell your songs as a songwriter to a producer looking for material around which to build an act. This is something that (just for example) I have been toying with on the production side; marrying some high-quality musicians and arrangers I know with some high-quality original songwriting from someone new and taking it all into a studio and on the road. But you'd have to relinquish any idea of control over such a project. The producer may hear your ideas and maybe even incorporate some of them, but any idea of co-production would be tough to negotiate (unless you're the next Bob Dylan, of course ;) ) Maybe there's an Aussie version of me (DownUNDER Glen? :D) who would want to take you on. In which case he would probably just need something simple from you, since you're really demoing the song nd not a performance act.

G.
 
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Thanks for your advice Glen! I hadn't really put enough thought into it, you know. And now that I have, I guess I actually don't really want to make music 'looking for label interest' at this juncture.

I don't know how accurate this statement is in terms of statistics, but I think a lot of bands starting out (in Downundersville) scrape up money for a shitty low quality demo (with all the right passion), go do gig's and get picked up by an A&R and get signed to a label and if they get a good producer they make it.. Which is where I'm at I guess, but I instead want to do a high quality recording solely for my own enjoyment without someone asking me for a 'catchier chorus' or 'single' - and if a label likes it then so be it. I find having to fit a certain set of criteria of "popular" sounding music that is in line with the "indie/alternative" genre - or some other stereotyped genre is not my idea of making music. Nor is having a producer giving me my direction musically (not that I am at all opposed to a producer helping in the process). That is big business. I think of myself as a small business owner. It's not that one is superior to the other, it is just that one allows you to control your own destiny, while the other can make you very rich very quickly, but you are a passenger... Or maybe more accurately the actor who contributes a line to the script here and there and dresses the part.

As for finding a producer, I am not afraid to ask someone trying to break into the industry to help produce my songs. I know many who would be glad to assist, seriously, every second bedroom or basement is a studio with a producer here... But I know a few who actually have the knowledge, skill and equipment... I also know some who want nothing less than ultimate control - or forget it!!!... Fair enough, it's their cred on the line.. But it's my money, and my project from my creative cess-pool of a brain. I am not a puppet - I am a musician, and if I wanted to just do as someone says I would have auditioned for idol :p.. Or just keep my day job.

As for the band, they can get together often enough to practice songs that don't involve many hours of writing and arranging. They just want their parts to practice and then to go gigging.

I currently have an arrangement with a producer who sells songs to publishers. I give him a demo of a song occasionally (relinquishing all directional and creative control) and he produces it to his likings and shops it to publishing companies through his music lawyer - I get royalties when the song gets picked up. Thats great, but I want to do something more satisfying than that. Something that is my vision - not someone else's... That's what music is about to me.

Music is not an appliance or car, music is something that has meaning and is a way of expressing yourself. I get so bored so quickly with most popular chart music, because it is so structured and formulaic, so safe and tailored and conceptually bland - "over-produced" people call it I think?.. The Death Cab's and Good Charlottes all blur together.. It is about as interesting as a toaster (to me anyway)..
My favorite songs are those by people just starting songwriting - that still have so much passion and un-inhibited creativity - ala Bob Dylan in the fifties. Bob Dylan in the 70's and 80's turned into pop-folk music that was woeful and bland IMO. And could he call the shots?

The music industry is a beast - one that I think I might try and stay out of the belly of.

How much do I owe ya Doc? ;)

P.S - By co-producing I think I meant finding and hiring session muso's...
 
If I have understood your thoughts okay, I think I can summarise your original post as:

"I write my own material which I believe has considerable originality (as evidenced by this material being taken up by others). I would like to work with someone who shares my musical directions to help me produce the material. I want to record a high quality CD that will showcase my musical ideals, and a producer who will not compromise those ideals. How can I ensure this?"

You are still (I believe) a free agent, and you can audition agents (in the same way that you would interview applicants for a job), and pick the one that's prepare to work with you on your terms. If this work is done beforehand, you should be able to proceed with confidence.

As an illustration, being a one-man operation, I often wear the dual hats of engineer and producer. However, whenever I get someone in to do some recording, I establish with them how much of the producer hat they wish me to wear. Some people have clearly defined musical directions, and want me just to be an engineer. Others want a bit of advice from time to time, while yet others have no real idea and ask me to adopt the producer role fully (with the price varying correspondingly).
 
Quoting gecko zzed:
"I write my own material which I believe has considerable originality (as evidenced by this material being taken up by others). I would like to work with someone who shares my musical directions to help me produce the material. I want to record a high quality CD that will showcase my musical ideals, and a producer who will not compromise those ideals. How can I ensure this?"

Hahaaa! I really do meander huh?... Well, yes in a nutshell, that is what I'm saying. I guess I just feel producers often get this idea that they are controlling the ship, when they are supposed to be enhancing your creative ideas... So I guess I will just be very precise and specific with which hat I want them to wear!

How would you go about auditioning a producer without working with him though? What questions would you ask?
 
It's a contract . . . I got the impression that you were paying?

So you specify what role you want beforehand.

However, that's not the whole of it, because if you want to engage someone sympathetic to your ideas, you have to find that out. Send a rough demo, explain your musical aspirations (concisely) and ask if they are willing to participate in the capacity you envisage. Judge them on their response.

Were I to be approached in such a manner, I would listen to the music and have one of a number of reactions:

1 this is awful and I don't want any part of it, no matter how much I'm paid ("thank you for asking me, but I couldn't do your material justice. See if you can find someone more attuned to your thinking. Bye");
2 this shows promise, and even though it's not to my musical taste, I can work with it ("thank you for asking me. Yep, I think we can work something out");
3 this is great, and I have a resonance with what you are trying to do, so no worries ("thank you for asking me. Yep, I think we can work something out");
4 this is frigging awesome . . . I'll do it for nothing because I want to be associated with it ("call me as soon as you can").
 
Elapses,

What is it exactly that you want to hire a producer for?

On the one hand, you say that you are willing to "[let] him start making decisions and suggestions about the musical direction", and on the other you talk about wanting to stick to "your vision" and are unwilling to have a "producer [give you] direction musically.

And then you talk about how everybody with a home rig is a "producer" - they're NOT (don't get me started! :rolleyes:) - and that you "know a few who actually have the knowledge, skill and equipment".

I have the feeling you're not looking for a producer at all. Rather you're looking to self-produce and you're looking for a lead engineer. Somebody who can take your desires and translate them into the proper fader and knob moves. And there's nothing wrong with that, it sounds like just what you need.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Elapses,

What is it exactly that you want to hire a producer for?

On the one hand, you say that you are willing to "[let] him start making decisions and suggestions about the musical direction", and on the other you talk about wanting to stick to "your vision" and are unwilling to have a "producer [give you] direction musically.

And then you talk about how everybody with a home rig is a "producer" - they're NOT (don't get me started! :rolleyes:) - and that you "know a few who actually have the knowledge, skill and equipment".

I have the feeling you're not looking for a producer at all. Rather you're looking to self-produce and you're looking for a lead engineer. Somebody who can take your desires and translate them into the proper fader and knob moves. And there's nothing wrong with that, it sounds like just what you need.

G.
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+1
this is coming from a "producer" in a home studio haha, ive been doing it for 5 years full time now..... i dont know how i would like if a band just handed me over a song. i poersonally like to work with bands completely, whenever i start a session i establish a good understanding of how much control they want to give me, and no matter what i always give suggesttions throughout the day...its my job after all.

i second that you just need to meet up with the right engineer that will help get your ideas down, vs giving total control to someone.
 
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