How does latency effect recording if I'm not using input monitoring?

[rcktdg]

I have been having some problems with parts playing back out of sync when I do overdubs. I thought it might have something to do with my mixer but I ruled that out.

Acting on advice from another bbs I changed my sample buffer values in my 2408 mk3 and then had sonar reconfigure for the new settings. It seemed to improve things but there was still a slight lag <10mS when I recorded an already existing track through my mixer. Some of this could be the path travelled by the audio.

I cannot seem to find an explanation of how these values work. They seem elusive. I have not experienced this problem before in other lesser rigs I have had. I have always worked with a drum machine or click so maybe something was different (I am using real drums now). Why does sonar use 2 Playback buffers and not 1 or more than 2? What does mixiing latency have to do with how it writes the track. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

My computer which is for audio only is:
P4 2.53
1.5 gigs ram
120 gig serial HDD for audio
MOTU 2408 mk3
Sonar 2.2

I am generally working with 16 tracks or less.

Thanks for any insight.

 

[James Argo]

As my limited knowledge tells me...

There are 2 kinds of "communication" here. One is betwen SONAR and Soundcard, another is betwen SONAR and HD drive.

In Options --> Audio --> General --> Mixing Latency, you alter the SONAR to Soundcard communication. Simple the lower the value, the "faster" they communicate (specially on good soundcard & driver), the higher is the "slower". However, setting it lower could causing more power source used, and sometimes glitchy sound and drop outs. If your soundcard support at least WDM, then you may want to slide the Mixing Latency slider as low as 2-4ms.

In Options --> Audio --> Advanced --> File System, you alter the value of buffers to read / write to HD drive. Set it at aound 64 is mostly suggested.

Anyway, are you runing DXi ? Or Realtime effect ?

 

[rcktdg]

Generally no DXi's but I use effects plugin's if that's what you mean, some eq's, some compression. I don't use it on everything but here and there. I mostly eq in my dm24 and use a bit of compression there too.

I am using Sonar as a recorder more than anything. I could get by not using any plugins until mixdown.

I feel like I am not really able to identify the problem. Other people seem to be able to articlute this stuff better than me. My concern is that I am not asking the right question.

My I/O buffer size is 64.

From what I can tell I am asking sonar to play back previously recorded audio tracks while I play along with them to record additional parts or make changes. I don't need anyting more than this, no input monitoring, no effects on what I'm playing, nothing. Simple. When I play back what I record it's position is not correct relative to the rest of the files. If I manually move the track with the mouse the whole thing plays in time and sounds fine. This is an unacceptable work around.

Is this a latency issue. It seems like a disk read/write thing or sample position issue.

As I sit here with sonar open and the audio engine running it is reading between 12% and 22% cpu usage in the little meter and nothing is playing.

Thanks for the explantion.
Cheers

 

[rcktdg]

According to MOTU

This is from their site...

"Latency is the inherent amount of time it takes for an audio signal to be patched through your system and be monitored through it's outputs. If you were recording a live track while listening to previously recorded audio tracks, the live track would sound a fraction of a second late compared to the pre-record tracks. The live track would be recorded with the correct timing, but the monitoring would sound late."

Well if that's latency then my problem is not latency. It's either read/write or sync. I'm not using input monitoring.

When I do overdubs I am listening to the previously recorded material while I play along. I am using a mixer for all my monitoring and furthermore I can hear my guitar. It all sounds fine until I play it back.

 

[rcktdg]

According to MOTU

This is from their site...

"Latency is the inherent amount of time it takes for an audio signal to be patched through your system and be monitored through it's outputs. If you were recording a live track while listening to previously recorded audio tracks, the live track would sound a fraction of a second late compared to the pre-record tracks. The live track would be recorded with the correct timing, but the monitoring would sound late."

Well if that's latency then my problem is not latency. It's either read/write or sync. I'm not using input monitoring.

When I do overdubs I am listening to the previously recorded material while I play along. I am using a mixer for all my monitoring and furthermore I can hear my guitar. It all sounds fine until I play it back.

 

[moskus]

How does latency effect recording if I'm not using input monitoring?

Generally speaking: It won't effect your recording directly, as it would when using Input Monitoring. But remember, low latency means more CPU power to handle the low latency, and less power to handle the recordings. So if you don't nee low latency, then I wouldn't push my computer to the limits just for the sake for it...

Your problem seems like something besides latency. I know that different playback and recording settings can do this, so you need to check your card. Maybe it records in 44.1 kHz and playbacks in 48 kHz. Stranger things has happened...

What drivers are you using with the Motu? Do they make WDM-drivers for their cards? If so, it could be a problem with them (just ask any Live!-user). If you're using WDM, can you change to ASIO (you need the Sonar 2.2 update)?

 

[rcktdg]

I have Sonar 2.2, Motu 2408 mkIII/424 WDM drivers released in March of this year. Up until this point I have been using the default settings with the hardware and everthing has been fine. I have not been doing overdubs until recently but I am nearing a project where they will be a must.

Sonar writes audio about 50 msec late (@2050 samples at 44.1k) with the MOTU buffer setting at 1024. 1024 is extremely stable for me. Overdubs sound fine going in but sound like hell coming out.

Sonar writes audio about 6 msec late (270 samples at 44.1k) with the buffer set at 128. This is unstable and wont make it through a 3-5 minute track without dropping out. This minimal lag is acceptable and is partially due to signal routing I'm sure.


I have not tried the ASIO drivers at this point. I'm not even sure how to go about it but that might be one of my next tests.

I have heard of many people using the 2408/Sonar combo so perhaps I am doing something wrong. It kicks butt for recording a whole bunch of tracks at the same time. I guess I better not make any mistakes and then it will be fine, right?

I truly curse this problem because I have a Neve preamp for the week. I just don't have it in me to mess with it since everthing is going to suck. Damn the luck.

Cheers, RD