How does everybody get a headphone?

[Stanbery]

I have a few 4 and 8 track cassette recorders (Fostex XR-5 & Tascam Portastudio 488) and I'm interested in recording some of my friends bands. I'm pretty comfortable with using the machine, but for the moment I would like to know how every member of the band can wear a pair of headphones and hear each other all at the same time while laying down their tracks? Assuming they want to do their basic tracks live...

Thanks!

 

[Steenamaroo]

Hi there,
Assuming the units have a single headphone output, you'd need a multichannel headphone amp and a TRS-TRS patch cable.

On a budget you can get a little behringer HA-400.
Everyone hears the same thing but they each have a volume control.

 

[smili]

I use a Furman HDS system
FurmanSound.com - Pro A/V Product - HDS-6

combined w/ these satellite boxes it lets each person mix their own phones.
FurmanSound.com - Pro A/V Product - HR-6

It's a little pricier than boxes w/ everybody getting the same mix - but the "more me" aspect is useful

 

[ecc83]

Regardless of hardware, giving everyone their own mix relies on your being able to "get at" individual sources, i.e. direct outs or inserts.

Dave.

 

[Stanbery]

Thanks for all the useful information guys! I can now check this off my list of questions...

 

[smili]

one more thing. I've not done this yet, but the next time I track w/ a full band (I'm a hobbyist so I don't do this very often) I'm going to double mic sources and feed that just for the headphone mix. 1 set of mics to go into the DAW, and the others to go into a separate mixer to drive the headphone mix. I figure I can do this with some cheapy extra mics and not have to deal with all the routing - and just add in the stereo mix from the DAW back to the headphone mix along w/ the second set of mics. I have no idea if it'll work OK, but dealing with all the routing gets on my nerves.

 

[ecc83]

one more thing. I've not done this yet, but the next time I track w/ a full band (I'm a hobbyist so I don't do this very often) I'm going to double mic sources and feed that just for the headphone mix. 1 set of mics to go into the DAW, and the others to go into a separate mixer to drive the headphone mix. I figure I can do this with some cheapy extra mics and not have to deal with all the routing - and just add in the stereo mix from the DAW back to the headphone mix along w/ the second set of mics. I have no idea if it'll work OK, but dealing with all the routing gets on my nerves.

Now then! Out of the mouths of....they say! Cheap mics are not going to get you a nice or comparable mix for monitoring. Look for some mic splitting transformer boxes, be a bit more money than mics but infinitely better quality AND they can be used for PA feeds on big events (might even be able to hire them out!) .
You could simply parallel the new mixer with the existing mics but you would have to makeup some one in, 2 out XLR boxes....Y'know! I despair of the impracticality of 99% of the recording wananbes that come to forums! Just gaining a little bit of electronical craft would save you $$$$$$$$$$$$!

Dave.

 

[smili]

sorry Dave, maybe it won't work. If so I'll go back to the other way w/ the routing the outputs from the DAW. I've understood that splitting mic signal reduces mic gain so was wanting to avoid that. I'm a home hobbyist and when I record it's so noisy that a pristine headphone mix is not exactly one of my top priorities, and I have more than enough mics.

...hiring out my equipment for big events as PA feeds? A different world from my living room

 

[ecc83]

sorry Dave, maybe it won't work. If so I'll go back to the other way w/ the routing the outputs from the DAW. I've understood that splitting mic signal reduces mic gain so was wanting to avoid that. I'm a home hobbyist and when I record it's so noisy that a pristine headphone mix is not exactly one of my top priorities, and I have more than enough mics.

...hiring out my equipment for big events as PA feeds? A different world from my living room

Ok. Well splitting a mic to two nominally and common 1.5kOhm mic inputs would incur a loss of 1.6dB, never going to notice that! Transformer splitters might have an insertion loss of 2.0dB, again inaudible. Many mic pres' are in fact 2k+ these days so the loss becomes even less important, diddly squatter of what was squat in the first palce.

When you say your recordings are noisy do you mean hiss, arising from the mic pre amps? If so you could be recording way too hot and your gain staging all up the Swanee!

The levels in the DAW software should be around -18dBFS, you are of course recording at 24bits?

Dave.

 

[smili]

When you say your recordings are noisy do you mean hiss, arising from the mic pre amps? If so you could be recording way too hot and your gain staging all up the Swanee!

Noisy as in "bleed" from recorded sources and live sources I hear through my headphones. Amp in back room, drums in main room, scratch vocalist in bathroom, another amp in laundry room... I normally stand in the room w/ the drums so I'm hearing the miced drums and live drums in the room pretty well since I'm in same room. Same for keyboard player who's going direct in, but he's in same room with drums. Wires running under doors to amps that are isolated in other room. Scratch vocalist is isolated pretty well. Bass player is normally going direct, but he's normally in same room w/ drummer too so he's getting a whole lot of drummer from just being in the room w/ the drummer.

Again, two sets of mics might not work, but was something I was going to try. I've never done it but thought it might be worth seeing how it works out. I do alot of "dumb" things because I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm not going to let that stop me! You've probably tried this and now have the wisdom that it doesn't work given your conviction. I haven't had that opportunity yet.

edit: Again, I'm a just a hobbyist, but I'm trying not to talk out my hind end either if that is of concern. I've done enough to think I can help folks on a newbies forum for recording - trying to give back because years ago when I was learning this is how I learned. Here's some stuff I recorded in my living room back then as sonic references. It's not great by any means, but for a bunch of no talent college buddies who enjoy songwriting it can be fun - which I think many folks posting here are trying to do.

I might Bend
Orion's Garden
Count the Ways

 

[ecc83]

Oh! Don't ever let anyone stop you from trying things out!

Sure the extra mics will work. My point was that they will not sound like those that you are tracking with but if all they are for is to keep peeps together, not a problem.

And since you seem to have an entire house at your disposal! Can I mention something that might save you a lot of cash on cables and give you better room to room isolation?

CAT5 shielded patch*cable is very cheap compared to mic cable and you get 4 pairs of very tightly twisted (good hum rejection) wires with an overall 100% foil shield and easily soldered drain wire. Thus a box of 4 XLRs each end* and you have 4 mic lines all in a 6mm cable so, one small hole thru a wall and snot it up. Now you can keep the doors shut, ram in some foam and gaffertape the gaps!

*You can actually use the solid wire CAT5 stuff, it will take a lot of abuse before breaking and of course if you "lay in lines" no problem. Our UK double 13Aamp outlet steel back boxes will actually take 8 XLRS easily and are cheap as chips.

The unshielded network cable is even cheaper (a network firm would probably throw 100mtrs at you if you asked!) and can be used to give 4 mono or 3 stereo headphone circuits and if you pair off the conductors, 4+4 in parallel it will easily carry 100watts of guitar amp.

Dave.

 

[smili]

thanks - I'll check the CAT5 shielded stuff out. The Furman headphone unit mentioned above uses CAT5 cable for connectors (or something like CAT5 - not sure if it's threaded the same way), but it seemed fragile compared to mic cable. I think one got stepped on doesn't work now intermittently so I try to be real careful around the stuff. I've been kindof wanting to do something like a snake and that may be a good way to go - especially if I can toughen it up with an external wrap. I can solder decently so that's not an issue, though constructing the "boxes" at the ends with all the xlrs economically never seems to match what I can just get a snake on ebay for if I wanted to.

edit: btw - do you have a link for "Our UK double 13Aamp outlet steel back boxes"? thanks
is it this?
http://www.onidserv.com/lutronshop/product/245/lutron-socket-double-uk-13-amp-mains-socket/lang/en

 

[ecc83]

thanks - I'll check the CAT5 shielded stuff out. The Furman headphone unit mentioned above uses CAT5 cable for connectors (or something like CAT5 - not sure if it's threaded the same way), but it seemed fragile compared to mic cable. I think one got stepped on doesn't work now intermittently so I try to be real careful around the stuff. I've been kindof wanting to do something like a snake and that may be a good way to go - especially if I can toughen it up with an external wrap. I can solder decently so that's not an issue, though constructing the "boxes" at the ends with all the xlrs economically never seems to match what I can just get a snake on ebay for if I wanted to.

edit: btw - do you have a link for "Our UK double 13Aamp outlet steel back boxes"? thanks
is it this?
Lutron Socket Double UK 13 Amp Mains Socket - RN-DRSU-H-F - lutron lighting | eu online shop

MBB2G47 - PRO ELEC - METAL BACK BOX 2 GANG 47MM | CPC

There you go ^! You can also get a blank plate to mount the XLRs on. I searched for aluminium blanks in vain, steels ones are a PITA to drill but if you have access to a pillar drill and holesaws, not such a chore.

Snakes more economical and less trouble? Yes, but you can't get them thru a 1/4inch hole! (actually I doubt they are cheaper. One run of CAT 5 gives you 4 ways)

RJ45 plugs not as robust as XLR? Not a lot is! They are vastly stronger than usb, Fussywire or DIN! AND! If you buy a crimp tool the plugs are peanuts and you can roll your own. But you don't need the RJ45 conns for the proposed breakout boxes. Just a gland (you even get a convienent 20mm knockout provided!) then solder in the wires.

Oh! and BTW, you can run MIDI down CAT 5 and if CAT5e, send audio, video, VGA, SPDIF and HDMI with the right adapter boxes, plus of course PC data and telephone (Annie log and DEC)

If some reading this think "old technology" think again. In a "stooodio" you want to keep wireless kit out, out, OUT!

Dave.