How does diaphragm size/polar pattern relate to mic applications?

Status
Not open for further replies.
sdc's and ldcs

in my oppinion, sdc's are better for recording acoustic instruments and more high frequency sound, and ldc's are better for recording vocals and lower frequencies
 
in my opinion, sdc's are better for recording acoustic instruments and more high frequency sound, and ldc's are better for recording vocals and lower frequencies
So, if someone was recording a pipe organ, you would recommend an ldc to get all the low notes?

Did you actually read this thread?
 
Last edited:
nope, just the initial question, you dont need to be a dick, there is a good chance i dont knwo what the fuck i'm tlking about, and i'm okay with it
 
Ben, I'd suggest you take the time to read and attempt to understand this thread in it's entirety, then review your opinion ;)..............if you're not prepared to do that then the wise move would be to STFU.

:cool:

EDIT..........Before you get offended or reply with some wisecrack, just go back and have a look at your posts here over the last few weeks...........like asking what is a LDC or SDC, what's a good acoustic mic for $100, balanced vs unbalanced, patchbays.....what are they for..............in view of your recently stated opinion in this thread, I'd have to ask just who is being a dick.
 
Last edited:
alright, alright, i dont wanna make anyone angry, haha, i just didnt understand, and i didnt take my time to read the thread, and i made all those threads about that cause i didnt understand, i was building a home studio and i needed to know what to spend my money on, and thansk to all you with your answers, i was able to build somethign that isnt half bad, and i guess i had no idea what i was talking aobut on this thread, my mistake, let my previous remarks be stricken from the record. peace
 
Ben, if you do nothing else here, I strongly suggest you at least read the first two stickys in this mic forum, from start to finish. I really think they'll both help you considerably in making better recordings. Both are up at the top of the mic forum for a reason.
 
Here's a discussion I had with a mic manufacturer about dynamic mic design at my PSW forum. My parts are in bold type:

Quoted from quite a while ago in a forum far far away...

"Dynamic Mics

By far, the most popular mic on the market today is the dynamic cardioid mic, so that's as good a place as any to start. "How does it work, what exactly is a cardioid, and how and where would you use it" will be our focus today. Let's look inside one and see what we find:

Well, it has a cone (like a small speaker), a voice coil (like a small speaker), and it sits in a magnetic gap (like a small speaker), so isn't it just a small speaker in reverse? Yes, and no. The operating principle is the same, but the execution is very different. When's the last time you saw a 3/4" speaker that went down to 30 or 40 Hz? Here's how it's done:

The system resonance is chosen for a mid band frequency. By itself, the capsule's response looks something like this:

......./\
....../..\
...../....\
..../......\
.../........\
../..........\
./............\ - just one big resonant peak, with the response falling off rapidly on each side of the peak. Now you can tame that peak by putting in a resonant chamber that's tuned to that peak, which will give you two smaller peaks on either side, like this:

..../\..../\
.../..\../..\
../....\/....\ And if you add two more resonant chambers, tuned for each or those peaks, you wind up looking more like this:

./\../\../\../\
/..\/..\/..\/..\ And if you make the chambers a little more broad band, the response starts to really flatten out:
._..._.._..._
/..\/..\/..\/..\ but remember, it's still a lot like a bunch of tuned coca cola bottles inside there.

Now ya gotta do all of this stuff JUST to get the response usable - never mind about the mic pattern yet!"

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

OK, I quoted this because I've seen it one too many times, and it just plain bugs me at this point. My objection to this "common wisdom" is that, in plain truth, it's plain wrong.

Dynamic mics are like little moving coil loudspeakers, yes, but... like moving coil loudspeakers, they have one primary resonance - not in the middle of their operating range, but at the bottom (typically 50 to 150 Hz for a modern dynamic microphone). Above that bottom resonance, up to 5 to 10 KHz, they are remarkable linear devices that are NOT relying on resonances to work.

Yes, at the very highest frequencies, there are peaks and dips on the curve, some due to housing diffraction (which is also present in large diameter condenser mics) and diaphragm breakup modes (which make more dips than peaks.

I know this is counter to common wisdom, but it's true - dynamic mics, though not perfect, do not rely on multiple resonances stacked on each other carefully (like a house of cards) to work. They're actually a little simpler (and hence more robust) than "common wisdom" implies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, yes and no, kinda, not exactly. Above the resonant peak (and up to where the diameter of the diaphragm equals 1/2 wavelength), the mic can be reasonably smooth. But the games that manufacturers play to get the resonant peak down to an acceptable level, and trying to extend the high end and low end is where the problems start.

Unfortunately, my ASCII drawing didn't allow for much detail to show the finer points, but the concept is still pretty valid for the extremes of the response curve. And the point that I was making is still pretty valid: A lot of it is done with smoke and mirrors.

I knew when I was writing this, that some of the analogies I made weren't perfectly accurate, but overall, the thread holds up pretty well as an introduction to microphones and why things aren't always as they seem to be. But you're right; I did paint a somewhat bleaker picture than necessary to get some attention.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The resonant peak is indeed damped by things around it, but to a knowledgeable manufacturer (yes, I work for one), there's no real voodoo involved - it's mostly acoustical resistances that can be measured, modeled, etc. Extending the low frequency end isn't really ever done beyond the engineering of the diaphragm's mass and compliance - the low frequency limit is set by the main resonant frequency (the pistonic one of the coil and diaphragm mass on the spring of the diaphragm surround), and below that, it's a 12 dB per octave dropoff. At the high frequency end, managing diffraction is a large part of the job, and doing some extension with a resonator is a well established part of the art.

So there's a second intentional resonance (beyond the low frequency one) in a typical design - for a net of one at each end of the pass band. In most designs, any other resonances are things that are engineered out of the design, not intentionally put in, and for a reputable manufacturer, that means you won't see (or hear) them much, if at all.

Where some of the "chambers" actually come in is more in the area of polar pattern management - making the mic act as a cardioid over a wide range of frequencies. A typical cardioid mic will have front and rear entries that, left to their own devices, will tend to want to make the mic a bi-directional at some frequencies. A chamber behind the diaphragm is often used to bring in some "omni" component, and steer things towards a consistent cardioid pattern.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that explanation would have left most of the readers at home recording in the dust. Yeah, I made too big a deal of the major peak, but it was easier to draw in ASCII, and the concept of other little stuff in there (chambers, slots, and resonators) I did try to cover, probably a little too simplistically in my description.

There were some other areas where I screwed up even worse, but I was pretty ill during a lot of the writing. Not much of an excuse, but it works for me. Most of the questions there were along the lines of "Which is better, a cardioid or a condenser?".

Is the entire thread useful (warts and all)? I think so - but only time will tell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wasn't trying to undermine the usefulness of your thread - just one sticking point that got to me. You are in remarkably good company, though - the guys at Neumann (who know a heck of a lot about condenser mics, are really smart, and nice guys to boot) even share some misconceptions about the workings of dynamics (as witnessed in the referenced material). So you don't have to feel too bad Wink

Now, if you want to talk major peaks, we could move on to condensers, but for now, let's just leave it lie. OK?

Have a great New Year!
 
Harvey-
I've just spent the better part of the evening reading the first 10 pages of this thread and wanted to say thanks.

I've learned more about mic placement and recording in the last few hours than a month of Sundays and thousands of dollars in equipment purchases could replace.

and most of it was posted in 2001...........:D
 
Here's a discussion I had with a mic manufacturer about dynamic mic design at my PSW forum. My parts are in bold type:

Quoted from quite a while ago in a forum far far away...

"Dynamic Mics

By far, the most popular mic on the market today is the dynamic cardioid mic, so that's as good a place as any to start. "How does it work, what exactly is a cardioid, and how and where would you use it" will be our focus today. Let's look inside one and see what we find:

Well, it has a cone (like a small speaker), a voice coil (like a small speaker), and it sits in a magnetic gap (like a small speaker), so isn't it just a small speaker in reverse? Yes, and no. The operating principle is the same, but the execution is very different. When's the last time you saw a 3/4" speaker that went down to 30 or 40 Hz? Here's how it's done:

The system resonance is chosen for a mid band frequency. By itself, the capsule's response looks something like this:

......./\
....../..\
...../....\
..../......\
.../........\
../..........\
./............\ - just one big resonant peak, with the response falling off rapidly on each side of the peak. Now you can tame that peak by putting in a resonant chamber that's tuned to that peak, which will give you two smaller peaks on either side, like this:

..../\..../\
.../..\../..\
../....\/....\ And if you add two more resonant chambers, tuned for each or those peaks, you wind up looking more like this:

./\../\../\../\
/..\/..\/..\/..\ And if you make the chambers a little more broad band, the response starts to really flatten out:
._..._.._..._
/..\/..\/..\/..\ but remember, it's still a lot like a bunch of tuned coca cola bottles inside there.

Now ya gotta do all of this stuff JUST to get the response usable - never mind about the mic pattern yet!"

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------

OK, I quoted this because I've seen it one too many times, and it just plain bugs me at this point. My objection to this "common wisdom" is that, in plain truth, it's plain wrong.

Dynamic mics are like little moving coil loudspeakers, yes, but... like moving coil loudspeakers, they have one primary resonance - not in the middle of their operating range, but at the bottom (typically 50 to 150 Hz for a modern dynamic microphone). Above that bottom resonance, up to 5 to 10 KHz, they are remarkable linear devices that are NOT relying on resonances to work.

Yes, at the very highest frequencies, there are peaks and dips on the curve, some due to housing diffraction (which is also present in large diameter condenser mics) and diaphragm breakup modes (which make more dips than peaks.

I know this is counter to common wisdom, but it's true - dynamic mics, though not perfect, do not rely on multiple resonances stacked on each other carefully (like a house of cards) to work. They're actually a little simpler (and hence more robust) than "common wisdom" implies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, yes and no, kinda, not exactly. Above the resonant peak (and up to where the diameter of the diaphragm equals 1/2 wavelength), the mic can be reasonably smooth. But the games that manufacturers play to get the resonant peak down to an acceptable level, and trying to extend the high end and low end is where the problems start.

Unfortunately, my ASCII drawing didn't allow for much detail to show the finer points, but the concept is still pretty valid for the extremes of the response curve. And the point that I was making is still pretty valid: A lot of it is done with smoke and mirrors.

I knew when I was writing this, that some of the analogies I made weren't perfectly accurate, but overall, the thread holds up pretty well as an introduction to microphones and why things aren't always as they seem to be. But you're right; I did paint a somewhat bleaker picture than necessary to get some attention.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The resonant peak is indeed damped by things around it, but to a knowledgeable manufacturer (yes, I work for one), there's no real voodoo involved - it's mostly acoustical resistances that can be measured, modeled, etc. Extending the low frequency end isn't really ever done beyond the engineering of the diaphragm's mass and compliance - the low frequency limit is set by the main resonant frequency (the pistonic one of the coil and diaphragm mass on the spring of the diaphragm surround), and below that, it's a 12 dB per octave dropoff. At the high frequency end, managing diffraction is a large part of the job, and doing some extension with a resonator is a well established part of the art.

So there's a second intentional resonance (beyond the low frequency one) in a typical design - for a net of one at each end of the pass band. In most designs, any other resonances are things that are engineered out of the design, not intentionally put in, and for a reputable manufacturer, that means you won't see (or hear) them much, if at all.

Where some of the "chambers" actually come in is more in the area of polar pattern management - making the mic act as a cardioid over a wide range of frequencies. A typical cardioid mic will have front and rear entries that, left to their own devices, will tend to want to make the mic a bi-directional at some frequencies. A chamber behind the diaphragm is often used to bring in some "omni" component, and steer things towards a consistent cardioid pattern.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And that explanation would have left most of the readers at home recording in the dust. Yeah, I made too big a deal of the major peak, but it was easier to draw in ASCII, and the concept of other little stuff in there (chambers, slots, and resonators) I did try to cover, probably a little too simplistically in my description.

There were some other areas where I screwed up even worse, but I was pretty ill during a lot of the writing. Not much of an excuse, but it works for me. Most of the questions there were along the lines of "Which is better, a cardioid or a condenser?".

Is the entire thread useful (warts and all)? I think so - but only time will tell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wasn't trying to undermine the usefulness of your thread - just one sticking point that got to me. You are in remarkably good company, though - the guys at Neumann (who know a heck of a lot about condenser mics, are really smart, and nice guys to boot) even share some misconceptions about the workings of dynamics (as witnessed in the referenced material). So you don't have to feel too bad Wink

Now, if you want to talk major peaks, we could move on to condensers, but for now, let's just leave it lie. OK?

Have a great New Year!

Whatever "eratta" or subtle variations of explanation that may be there, regardless, the information is now here for us to absorb and understand in better detail. Kudos to Harvey for having the magnanimous disposition and point of view to put this here and clarify things even further!

This is what this is all about.

My understandings derived from all this still continue to grow as I am now bringing about my own creations and still light bulbs are going off over my head daily. It is really all making sense now.

I love this stuff!
 
Hi Harvey: This is the first time I have been on this forum. I found it in a search about mics and I have read it all the way to pg. 16 where you covered many areas of micing. I to would like to thank you very much for your time and help and willingness to share. You are a very thoughtful person.
My problem is this. I bought an AKG 414 mic because I thought that would be the answer to my vocal problems and getting good sound when recording my 19 year old daughter in the studio. I am recording with a Roland 2480. I have recorded her several times on the same song and she quite frankly is getting tired of me experimenting on her but I still have not mastered what I am doing wrong. The problem is this: Her voice in some areas of the song is almost biting the ear to listen to it. Her levels were recorded fine well below the red line but the voice is just so shrilly in some areas.
Heres how I recorded it last. I had her stand about 12 inches away and I had the AKG 414 just slightly above her head. The part that I don't understand is the settings on the mic itself and hense is probably where most of my problem is. I think the last time it was not on the heart shape or the figure eight, It was on the one that is one in from the right next to the heart shape. The front switch is a mystery to me as well and I am not in front of it right now to tell you what it was set to but could you give me some advise knowing what mic I am working with what settings I should set to and placement? Thanks again for everything and I do appreciate it very much.


Dan
 
Sorry I missed this, but I was on my way back from the NAMM show. Simple answer:

The AKG 414 has some high end peaks which are making her vocals too bright. Singing directly into the mic makes these peaks worse.

Try having her sing into the mic at an angle (anywhere from 30 to 45 degrees off axis).
 
harvey, amazing thread, i know its years after it started but ive read through it more than once and it is an unbelievable wealth of information.

my question is one that might be stupid, but im just hoping i can get some recommendations. i need a couple of mics for my home studio. i need a mic that will get solid vocal sounds, and i also need something that will work well on acoustic guitar. i am also considering buying a pair of condensers to use for drum overheads, and my question is this - ive read that a lot of people like to use large diaphragm condensers for overheads sometimes, so if i went that route, do you think that there are any options out there that could possibly work for overheads, acoustic guitar, and also for a vocal? i am just on a limited budget so if i could find a pair of mics to use on overheads and acoustics that i could also use one of them for vocals with good results, that would make my day. any recommendations at all or am i just asking too much?
 
Essentially, small diaphragm condenser mics usually have better off-axis response, so they're better for miking large sources (like drums and acoustic guitars). Large diaphragm mics work especially well for vocals because they have characteristics that flatter the voice (at the expense of good off-axis response).

There are exceptions to this general rule; for example, the Neumann U87i has good off axis response for a large diaphragm mic, but it's expensive. Most large diaphragm mics that work well with off-axis signals are also gonna be expensive.

Your best bet (from an economic standpoint) would be a couple of SDC's for acoustic guitars, drum overheads, and large sources in general. Add an LDC for vocals and small sources.
 
thanks for the quick reply. i was thinking that might be the way i had to go. after reading through this thread and doing some additional research i was considering going the route of a matched pair of MXL603s, and then i was thinking the MXL V67G for vocals. i might actually be able to spend more on the LDC, any recommendations somewhere in the 500-700 dollar range? or do you think the V67G is a good enough mic for the money that it wouldnt necessarily make sense to spend only a few hundred more dollars for something else, and instead just wait until i can actually spend real money on a significant improvement?

edit - also how do you feel about the MXL V69 compared to the V67G?
 
Last edited:
Cello

I am really enjoying this thread and want to thank you for sharing your knowledge.

I am not sure if I missed it but you did not talk about cello. You kept saying that you would get to it as it is a special case. My curiosity is really peaked.

I have experimented with recording cello and also cello with piano. I have found that large condensers in XY high above about 12 feet in front seems to work well. But I am not sure if this is the answer. When playing with piano, the piano seems a bit bassy and blurry.

One of the biggest issues with recording cello is bow noise. Getting too close or pointing a mic at the bridge can result in noticeable scratching. Getting rid of the scratching with eq can affect the color of the instrument. There is also noise from the left hand tapping the strings so aiming the mic higher is not good. That is why I went with recording from a bit further away aiming down.

I've experimented a bit with other mics. I find that small condensers seem to make the cello sound a bit light and the bass a bit weak. My cello seems to need a bit of enrichment from large condensers. I also find that dynamic 421s sound a bit washed out and unclear. Ribbon mics seem expensive and I've never tried one.

There are recordings of cello such as several Yo-Yo Ma recordings which are really excellent. Both solo and with piano. So I know it can be done well.

My next step is to get some better large condensers and try to go from there. I recently changed to better preamps and that helped a lot with bow noise, richness of sound, and everything else. I am renting some mics over the next few weeks to see what might work better. Any advice would be really appreciated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top