moskus
The Creator of Æ, Ø and Å
... and makes the SNR for the signal worse.Middleman said:
M
mallcore pop
Hard Nipples!!!
There's nothing wrong with boosting!!
Be not afraid, my gentle friends. . .
Be not afraid, my gentle friends. . .
O
OzNimbus
New member
I beg to differ. Boosting EQ is incredibly destructive. Boost a signal, and you're adding noise. All an eq is, is a "shitty amplifier" tuned to a certain frequency.
Want a brighter sound? Cut around the frequency you want to boost, then raise the overall level. MUCH cleaner.
But don't take my word for it. George Massenburg (you know, the guy who invented the parametric equalizer and has more Grammy Awards than I care to count) said, and I quote: "Never boost, always cut." I'm certainly not going to argue with a man with those kind of credentials.
I haven't used a boosting EQ in over four years. It certainly takes more effort to use cuts effectively, and there is a learning curve involved, but it's worth the effort. Your projects will just plain sound better.
Want a brighter sound? Cut around the frequency you want to boost, then raise the overall level. MUCH cleaner.
But don't take my word for it. George Massenburg (you know, the guy who invented the parametric equalizer and has more Grammy Awards than I care to count) said, and I quote: "Never boost, always cut." I'm certainly not going to argue with a man with those kind of credentials.
I haven't used a boosting EQ in over four years. It certainly takes more effort to use cuts effectively, and there is a learning curve involved, but it's worth the effort. Your projects will just plain sound better.
Middleman
Professional Amateur
Thanks OzNimbus. I could not remember where I had learned that and you reminded me it was an interview with George Massenburg where I first heard that.
There was also a magazine article a while back which actually did some tests on this and there was an audible difference.
I read so much stuff I can't keep track of things anymore.
There was also a magazine article a while back which actually did some tests on this and there was an audible difference.
I read so much stuff I can't keep track of things anymore.
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mixsit
Well-known member
Middleman said:
Middleman and OzNimbus, thanks for the info.
Does that mean when you cut, you don't also get the pahse nasties? Seem like it might be the same mechanisms at work either way, but since you're cutting, they're less heard?
Got time for one more?
If you do a one octave bell at say 500, does the whole track get it's pahse turned or just the part you are boosting?
Always wondered...
Thanks.
Wayne
Middleman
Professional Amateur
Basically, if you cut, you’re just reducing the volume in the cut area which has no effect other than the obvious reduction of those frequencies. However, your also taking the noise level down which is not a bad thing.
On the other hand, let’s say you have a drum track where there is a very weak 100-200Hz sound. If you boost it 5-10db then you’re pushing a lot of noise to make the track have volume in that zone. There are also artifacts inherent to the plug in, or even hardware, i.e. the tonal characteristic of digital summing or just the sound of the hardware, which comes along with pushing information that is not present in the original signal. It turns out that phasing can occur as a result which makes the boosted area indistinct and not exactly clear. This is why you always hear the term, "Get it right at the tracking stage." When this is done then you have less EQing involved and the tracks sound clearer and more distinct.
Guys who have mixed a lot, and know their gear, are pre-thinking , at least the rhythm tracks, and pick the right mics, preamps, compressors and EQ going into the machine. If you know your room this is invaluable too.
Most of this I learned from guys around here, magazines and the internet so if somebody sees something a little off please feel free to comment. This said, occasionally I will boost but only very small amounts with wide Q.
On the other hand, let’s say you have a drum track where there is a very weak 100-200Hz sound. If you boost it 5-10db then you’re pushing a lot of noise to make the track have volume in that zone. There are also artifacts inherent to the plug in, or even hardware, i.e. the tonal characteristic of digital summing or just the sound of the hardware, which comes along with pushing information that is not present in the original signal. It turns out that phasing can occur as a result which makes the boosted area indistinct and not exactly clear. This is why you always hear the term, "Get it right at the tracking stage." When this is done then you have less EQing involved and the tracks sound clearer and more distinct.
Guys who have mixed a lot, and know their gear, are pre-thinking , at least the rhythm tracks, and pick the right mics, preamps, compressors and EQ going into the machine. If you know your room this is invaluable too.
Most of this I learned from guys around here, magazines and the internet so if somebody sees something a little off please feel free to comment. This said, occasionally I will boost but only very small amounts with wide Q.
O
OzNimbus
New member
mixsit said:Middleman and OzNimbus, thanks for the info.
Does that mean when you cut, you don't also get the pahse nasties? Seem like it might be the same mechanisms at work either way, but since you're cutting, they're less heard?
Got time for one more?
If you do a one octave bell at say 500, does the whole track get it's pahse turned or just the part you are boosting?
Always wondered...
Thanks.
Wayne
I can't be certain. I'm not a scientist by any means, I just go by my ears. However, I do belive, and I could be wrong, that cutting EQ doesn't shift the phase. Case in point: If you're doing a multiple drum miking situation, and start boosting frequencies on only a few mics, you're really going to fuck up the sound.... because of phase shift. The mics will start working against each other. If you use cutting eq, however, you can get away with it, because the mics will work together. (if they're in phase to begin with, that is)
Again, I'm not 100% sure on the science end of it. My best advice to you is to start cutting like mad and let your ears be the judge.
-0z-
Qwerty
New member
The only other thing I would add to Middleman's excellent post is that I have also read that with "most" plug-ins, (read - the ones you and I can afford, ie. the ones included with Sonar ), you really shouldn't be cutting more than 5-6dB otherwise you run into the same phase shit detailed above.
To my ears, this seems to be the case with the 2.2 XL plugs - I am trying to convince myself that the Sonitus ones are much better.........
Or I just never used wide enough Q's......... Hmm...
Q.
Moskus - I know, I know - just buy Waves..... Tell my wife.....
), you really shouldn't be cutting more than 5-6dB otherwise you run into the same phase shit detailed above.To my ears, this seems to be the case with the 2.2 XL plugs - I am trying to convince myself that the Sonitus ones are much better.........
Or I just never used wide enough Q's......... Hmm...
Q.Moskus - I know, I know - just buy Waves..... Tell my wife.....
Qwerty
New member
The only other thing I would add to Middleman's excellent post is that I have also read that with "most" plug-ins, (read - the ones you and I can afford, ie. the ones included with Sonar ), you really shouldn't be cutting more than 5-6dB otherwise you run into the same phase shit detailed above.
To my ears, this seems to be the case with the 2.2 XL plugs - I am trying to convince myself that the Sonitus ones are much better.........
Or I just never used wide enough Q's......... Hmm...
Q.
Moskus - I know, I know - just buy Waves..... Tell my wife.....
), you really shouldn't be cutting more than 5-6dB otherwise you run into the same phase shit detailed above.To my ears, this seems to be the case with the 2.2 XL plugs - I am trying to convince myself that the Sonitus ones are much better.........
Or I just never used wide enough Q's......... Hmm...
Q.Moskus - I know, I know - just buy Waves..... Tell my wife.....
Toki987
Rock Steady
Middleman said:
I think that might be part of the problem on my last mix. I was stuck with an mp3 for base track with some mud and distortion already on it. Had to adorn from there on the high end. Bringing out some stuff to hear well cost me a lot on the high end. I used a parametric EQ and tube compressor with with boost in the 6 to 12k range. It brought the stuff out but sounds like its grinding.