How do you guys select overheads?

[DrewPeterson7]

Pretty open-ended question, I guess - what goes through your thought process when you're looking for a set of overheads for a given session?

I'm asking in abstract terms - not, "Oh, well, of the mics I own, I really dig this pair, so I usually start here," or "You can't go wrong with such-and-such a mic from so-and-so" but rather more of a mic design sort of thing - what are the arguments for large diaphram condensors over small? And polar pattern? How does this vary based on the quality of the room? I.e - for a bad room would you recommend one type? How about a good-sounding but very "live" room vs a good sounding room with much less ambience?

If it helps, I'll probably be using some variation of the Glyn Johns or Recorderman setup, though likely with individual mics on the toms as well as a snare and kick mic (though, they may or may not make it to the final mix - sort of a covering all bases here and leaving options open, since I have the available mics and channels).

 

[ez_willis]

Pretty open-ended question, I guess - what goes through your thought process when you're looking for a set of overheads for a given session?

well, for me there are many variables. kit, room, drummer, type of music, etc., but ultimately since it's just me playing my crappy kit in my crappy room, i always opt for the only two sdc's i have.

 

[ez_willis]

well, for me there are many variables. kit, room, drummer, type of music, etc., but ultimately since it's just me playing my crappy kit in my crappy room, i always opt for the only two sdc's i have.

hope that helps.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

i always opt for the only two sdc's i have.

Why SDCs, though? Because they're your only pair of condensers of any sort, or because they're preferable? If so, why?

 

[ez_willis]

Why SDCs, though? Because they're your only pair of condensers of any sort, or because they're preferable? If so, why?

it's what i got. i have two different ldc's. wouldn't work for that.

 

[grimtraveller]

For me it's a combination of what I have, who is playing the drums, whether I'm going to use one, two or three mics (as O/Hs), the fact that I'm no engineer or expert, my unshakable belief that ultimately any mic will do and sheer sometime guesswork !
There's no rhyme nor reason to it - I've used both dynamics and condensers and both yielded good results (to my ears anyway). Sometimes I've used a dynamic as a room mic well away from the kit and that's picked up far better than the overheads. My condensers are SDCs (in fact, the two mics look like silver cigars) and they're OK. With one of the guys who plays drums with me, I actually put the mics under the level of the cymbals as he can batter the shit out of the kit in his more excitable moments (he's 19) but that seems to control the cymbal splash. Whereas with another of my friends that's more experienced and alot older (49), that's never an issue. His playing is such that I can get a superbly balanced sound with just three mics (kick, snare and one dynamic overhead).
I think part of my thinking derives from much of the reading I did in the 80s and 90s of the Beatles and groups that never wanted the same drum sound. They were always looking for a different sound for each track. And I always remember the late John Entwistle being very disparaging of the drums on "Tommy". He said they sounded like biscuit tins. And if you listen to groups like Zeppelin, Purple and Return to Forever, from album to album, the drum sounds are very different.

 

[mshilarious]

LDCs have poorer transient response, poorer high frequency response, and less consistent off-axis response, so the main reason you see people prefer them for overheads is because they like it when the heavy LDC falls and smacks them over their head

Also, people with crappy cymbals prefer cheap ribbon mics, because they make their cymbals sound 17% less crappy.

 

[WhiteStrat]

LDCs have poorer transient response, poorer high frequency response, and less consistent off-axis response, so the main reason you see people prefer them for overheads is because they like it when the heavy LDC falls and smacks them over their head

Also, people with crappy cymbals prefer cheap ribbon mics, because they make their cymbals sound 17% less crappy.

My cheap ribbons are crappy. So they only make my cymbals sound 14% less crappy. So I make my drummer play 21% less crappy and stick with the SDCs.

 

[Big Kenny]

I like the sdc's , seems to give me a more defined, usable sound. cleaner,
i guess

 

[moresound]

I like the sdc's , seems to give me a more defined, usable sound. cleaner,
i guess

I would have to agree here with Big Kenny....not to say that I've used LDC with good results as well.

 

[Shadow_7]

Sound samples. If someone else can make that make and model in that usage work, perhaps, maybe, in a favorable wind, only on thursday and if it rains, I can too.

And specs. If it can't handle the performance conditions to start with SPL, temp, humidity, ... It'd be a little pointless to try to use them outside their comfort zone. At least for anything long term.

And popularity. Someone else has to want them and be willing to pay most of what I paid for them if I DON'T want them after purchase.

 

[dgatwood]

Biggest thing, in my mind anyway, is avoiding mics with a ragged top end or harsh off-axis response. Assuming a pair of overheads, your hat and your cymbals can't all be on axis. For example, I've been happy with a pair of Oktava MK-012 mics, which are a cardioid SDC.

And some of the cheap Chinese SDCs can have a really trashy sounding top end that just makes you want to rip your ears off. With the Nady CM90 mics I used to use, my kit sounds like somebody ran it through an Aphex Aural Exciter too many times.

Something else to consider is the ceiling height---particularly when using ribbons. When you have a figure-eight mic, having a reflective surface right behind it is a really bad idea. I'd be hesitant to use figure-eight ribbons on overheads unless I had at least a 15 foot ceiling.... Cardioid ribbons, sure, but not figure-eights. Not that I've ever tried it, but I have used ribbons on other sources with walls not too far away, and it wasn't pretty.

 

[DrewPeterson7]

So, the general consensus is a pair of cardioid SDCs is probably a safe bet for the bulk of recording situations?

Thanks guys, the insight (arguably, more so than the conclusion itself) is much appreciated!

 

[Shadow_7]

So, the general consensus is a pair of cardioid SDCs is probably a safe bet for the bulk of recording situations?

Thanks guys, the insight (arguably, more so than the conclusion itself) is much appreciated!

I don't know about cardioid. That can be problem solving and problematic. For live or studio use, sure. But in a nice sounding open space it's hard to beat OMNIs. Plus cards can be highly directional and odds are good of missing at least part of your target. i.e. If you don't have a pair of cards, you might literally only get HALF the image.

 

[darrin_h2000]

LDCs have poorer transient response, poorer high frequency response, and less consistent off-axis response, so the main reason you see people prefer them for overheads is because they like it when the heavy LDC falls and smacks them over their head

Also, people with crappy cymbals prefer cheap ribbon mics, because they make their cymbals sound 17% less crappy.

Thats pretty short sighted since LDC mics for over heads are on more of the classic rock recordings.

Ive been sticking with a pair of Shure KSM32s...technically they are 3/4" so they are between LDCs and SDCs....my sdc mics dont sound as good.

 

[dgatwood]

I don't know about cardioid. That can be problem solving and problematic. For live or studio use, sure. But in a nice sounding open space it's hard to beat OMNIs. Plus cards can be highly directional and odds are good of missing at least part of your target. i.e. If you don't have a pair of cards, you might literally only get HALF the image.

I think a pair of mics for overheads is pretty much a given. Anything less just won't sound right, IMHO.

I tend to lean towards cardioids in an X/Y configuration. You can get a partial stereo effect with spaced omnis, but you end up with more phase difference and less volume difference between the two channels than you would get if you were sitting there listening in person.

More to the point, I prefer a pair of cardioids in a slightly noncoincident X/Y pair a few inches apart at the tips. That gets you pretty close to what human ears hear in the forward direction, which is usually the only direction you care about anyway. You get the slight phase discrepancy of a slightly spaced pair coupled with the difference in volume that directional mics provide.

Everybody has different opinions about stereo techniques, of course. That's just my personal preference.

 

[mshilarious]

Mmm . . . darrin's banned again, so no point arguing, but of course I think there are probably plenty of KM84/KM184/C451EB+CK1 etc. recordings. But it doesn't matter really, my point is technically accurate, so I win

Um, let's see, strictly speaking cardioids should not be "highly directional", they should be -6dB at 90 degrees. More directional microphones won't be cardioid; they will be supercardioid or hypercardioid. In fact, where you see sloppiness in spec of cardioids it's usually towards the subcardioid side rather than tighter patterns. Of course, all microphones tend to be more directional at higher frequencies, but that's even true of omnis.

And "spaced XY" shouldn't be called XY, which refers to a coincident arrangement. Instead, near-coincident pairs are normally termed according to their specific configuration; whether ORTF, DIN, or something similar, or simply "near-coincident pair".

Lastly, I don't think any common drum overhead technique yields the sound of drums in the room. Room mics do that, but overheads cannot (unless you're the drummer). The usual goal of drum recording, at least in a typical rock production, is to create a superrealistic sound with an exaggerated stereo spread.

One more time! For me, the deciding factor between cardioids and omnis is the intended "reach" into the kit. "Reach" is a function of bass response, which is a function of distance for a cardioid mic. Therefore, omnis will pick up more of the fundamentals of the toms and kick in the overheads than cardioids will. Whether that is good or bad depends on the intended goal of the style of music.

 

[mshilarious]

Oh, and to bash darrin a bit more: why did Shure select a 3/4" diaphragm for the KSM32 and not something larger? Because, according to Shure:

The KSM32 has a large, .750 inch (3/4”) diaphragm. Shure developed a diaphragm of this size to take advantage of its performance benefits over an even larger sized diaphragm. These include extended high frequency response, improved linearity and more consistent polar response at high frequencies.

http://shure.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/shure.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=114

 

[Bguzaldo]

I like to set up one overhead right away, get the levels good and listen and say, "ok does this sound good?" if no I'll change the mic to something I think would be a little more flattering if the first mic had an unappealing mid bump I'll look for something a little less mid rangey, etc. If it does sound good then the next question is "what's missing?" if the floor tom is a little too quiet I'll have to figure out if I think another overhead will suffice or it may need to be close mic'd.

A big thing for me is how many overheads do I want on the kit. A lot of times I'll put one up and say, "that actually sounds pretty good" and then I'll reinforce where I need to.

If its faster punk music I think it sounds better when you pull the overheads back and get a basic image of the drums and then rely a little more on room mics and close mics. I've tried a good amount of times to record fast music with a small number of mics and everything seems to get washed away by the cymbals. (but this is mostly because the ceilings in my tracking space are pretty low) So for this I like something that isn't gonna blast the cymbals at me.

If the drummer is just really kick ass I can usually just use 1 overhead and 1 room mic and get a nice sound. In this case I'd be lookin for something reasonably flat to make sure I'm getting everything I need. I usually reach for a tube or ribbon mic (more often the tube).

This is a pretty strange topic to reply to. Every drummer is different and every drum set is different and every room is different ( I could go on and on). So you gotta just listen. Once you hear the set and what the drummer is playing it should be fairly obvious what its roll in the mix is. I'm not sure if its normal or not, but I never really set up mics the same twice. There are times where I'll have an overhead, a room mic and a floor tom mic and that's it. There are also times where I'll have a snare mic and two room mics but at other times I'll have 10 mics on the drums. I use to record drums in my house with a mic on every floor (in the basement, on the first floor and another on the second) I'll stick mics in closets or tape em to the floor. Sorry I'm ranting, its just recording drums is one of my favorite things to do

I hope this helped you walk around in my brain a little (although that's not too much fun)

Another side note to be aware of....I use to have a bad habit of EQing mics to sound how I wanted them so I would use mics that were less than stellar for the occasion and just EQ it until it was close to where I wanted it. THIS IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO GO ABOUT IT. EQ by choosing mics. I know it may be a fairly obvious point, but it wasn't that obvious to me at one point.

 

[Bguzaldo]

Sometimes I've used a dynamic as a room mic well away from the kit and that's picked up far better than the overheads.

Haha yeah I've had that happen to me too. I think that sometimes the transients of the condensers can be too much sometimes, and their tendency to get EVERYTHING can be overwhelming .