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RDuke
New member
foreverain4 said:
What's to prevent someone from mailing themselves an unsealed envelope? It carries the stamps and postmarks, but if it's unsealed, I can stuff and seal it anytime I want. That's the flaw.
What's to prevent someone from mailing themselves an unsealed envelope? It carries the stamps and postmarks, but if it's unsealed, I can stuff and seal it anytime I want. That's the flaw.
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foreverain4
New member
do you honestly think that people send themselves empty unsealed envelopes in their spare time?
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foreverain4
New member
i will admit, it is possible though!
Gidge
Lapdance Test Dummy
form SR covers the recording itself......probably better to use form PA which covers the actual song (lyrics,melody,etc)......
"You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. "
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q14
do it now, or do it later.....btw, let me know how hard the judge laughs when you pull out your sealed envelope for evidence.....
"You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. "
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/faq.html#q14
do it now, or do it later.....btw, let me know how hard the judge laughs when you pull out your sealed envelope for evidence.....
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Peter D
New member
It seems like "the poor man's copyright" comes up in every songwriting seminar, publication, or discussion group I've ever been involved in. I'm not an attorney, but I have been involved in copyright infringement litigation on several occasions as both a party and a witness. The only way to secure a relatively safe copyright in the United States is to file the $30 fee and a completed copyright form with enclosures to the Registrar of Copyrights. Whether you do it by Form SR, PA or even TX, for lyrics, you are in far better shape than trying to short circuit the system.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a great believer at bucking the system at times, but not to cut my own throat. Attorneys and copyright law professors will give you a lot of legalese why you should register your copyrights, but the bottom line is:
1) A registered copyright can save you thousands of dollars in legal fees for discovery and pretrial proceedings. Where I come from a 4 hour deposition costs about $1500 minimum. For me, that's enough of a reason to spend $30 on a copyright.
2) A registered copyright entitles the federal court to assess certain statutory penalties against the person or party(ies) that infringe upon the copyright of a registered song(s). The penalty can amount to $10,000 per violation. That's a fairly decent deterrent to most people and companies not to intentionally mess with a registered song.
3) If you prevail in a copyright infringement suit and have a registered copyright the statutes provide for award of costs and attorneys fees, meaning usually that the other side pays your costs of suit. A review of copyright decisions also shows that the courts tend to award higher damages to holders of registered copyrights than to the holders of common law copyrights. Judges aren't stupid, registered copyrights make their jobs easier.
To me the decision of whether or not to register a copyright comes down to whether one wants to be a recreational or professional songwriter.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a great believer at bucking the system at times, but not to cut my own throat. Attorneys and copyright law professors will give you a lot of legalese why you should register your copyrights, but the bottom line is:
1) A registered copyright can save you thousands of dollars in legal fees for discovery and pretrial proceedings. Where I come from a 4 hour deposition costs about $1500 minimum. For me, that's enough of a reason to spend $30 on a copyright.
2) A registered copyright entitles the federal court to assess certain statutory penalties against the person or party(ies) that infringe upon the copyright of a registered song(s). The penalty can amount to $10,000 per violation. That's a fairly decent deterrent to most people and companies not to intentionally mess with a registered song.
3) If you prevail in a copyright infringement suit and have a registered copyright the statutes provide for award of costs and attorneys fees, meaning usually that the other side pays your costs of suit. A review of copyright decisions also shows that the courts tend to award higher damages to holders of registered copyrights than to the holders of common law copyrights. Judges aren't stupid, registered copyrights make their jobs easier.
To me the decision of whether or not to register a copyright comes down to whether one wants to be a recreational or professional songwriter.
WATYF
...happier than you.
Is it just me or was the same exact thing just stated over and over by five different people...? 
The only thing I have to add... (which.. gee... I hope hasn't been stated already.. ) is that you can copyright both the written work (lyrics) and the recorded work (CD) at the same time by using form SR. That's what I think I'll be doing with my stuff.
And as for copyrighting a "compliation".. you might wanna reconsider that.. you may have to undergo legal wranglings later on if you ever wanted to separate one of those songs from the work.... at least.. that's what I heard...
WATYF
The only thing I have to add... (which.. gee... I hope hasn't been stated already..
) is that you can copyright both the written work (lyrics) and the recorded work (CD) at the same time by using form SR. That's what I think I'll be doing with my stuff.And as for copyrighting a "compliation".. you might wanna reconsider that.. you may have to undergo legal wranglings later on if you ever wanted to separate one of those songs from the work.... at least.. that's what I heard...
WATYF
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Peter D
New member
WATYF - Yeah - five of us, at least, said basically the same thing, but apparently there are people who don't want to believe it. Re copyrighting "compilations". It can be a potential problem if you do it incorrectly. Once you obtain the copyright on the compilation, you have to file additonal amendments and forms to get individual copyright protection for each and every song. Unfortunately, when one tries to explain it peoples' eyes start rolling and they lose consciousness. It's boring and time consuming, but can save hundreds, if not, several thousand dollars in filing fees.
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IceFairy
New member
Hold Up!
Okay. That last post is really depressing. You're saying that whoever told me I can copyright all of my songs together and then jerk one out to use elsewhere at my convenience is..wrong?! *L* This gets messier everyday.
As it stands, I have between 15-20 songs to copyright (depending on which I decide to use). Even if I just wanted to use my best out of those, which would be somewhere around 5.. I need to get a pretty darn good after-school job or something
What DO you do? I'm ready to hear the mess if this means me possibly spending $150-600 to prove I really wrote what I say I did. I thought I'd found the poor man's loophole..
Okay. That last post is really depressing. You're saying that whoever told me I can copyright all of my songs together and then jerk one out to use elsewhere at my convenience is..wrong?! *L* This gets messier everyday.
As it stands, I have between 15-20 songs to copyright (depending on which I decide to use). Even if I just wanted to use my best out of those, which would be somewhere around 5.. I need to get a pretty darn good after-school job or something
What DO you do? I'm ready to hear the mess if this means me possibly spending $150-600 to prove I really wrote what I say I did. I thought I'd found the poor man's loophole..
A
ap
Member
Legal Disclaimer: I don't know shit.
If there's a registered copy- printed out lyrics, chords, etc. or a recording- of your song, whether it's part of a compilation or on it's own, there's no way anyone could ever beat you in court if a dispute arises. The song is there, dated and authorized for anyone to see the proof. Just because it's in a compilation shouldn't change the common sense notion that it's your song.
The way I understand it, it's not an issue until that big label wants to use one of the songs. Then it will cost extra money in the long run.
But hey, what's a few thousand dollars at that point? No big deal. You're rich dude! Woohoo!
In a compilation, noone could steal it, but it has to be separated from the compilation before someone else can use it commercially on it's own. You, however, could do whatever you wanted with it.
... or something like that.
Better to save a few hundred now. No point in spending $600 on something of questionable value.
If there's a registered copy- printed out lyrics, chords, etc. or a recording- of your song, whether it's part of a compilation or on it's own, there's no way anyone could ever beat you in court if a dispute arises. The song is there, dated and authorized for anyone to see the proof. Just because it's in a compilation shouldn't change the common sense notion that it's your song.
The way I understand it, it's not an issue until that big label wants to use one of the songs. Then it will cost extra money in the long run.
But hey, what's a few thousand dollars at that point? No big deal. You're rich dude! Woohoo!
In a compilation, noone could steal it, but it has to be separated from the compilation before someone else can use it commercially on it's own. You, however, could do whatever you wanted with it.
... or something like that.
Better to save a few hundred now. No point in spending $600 on something of questionable value.
A
ap
Member
The following is #58 on the copywrite office's website FAQ, ...and no, I'm not joking:
"How do I protect my sighting of Elvis?
Copyright law does not protect sightings. However, copyright law will protect your photo (or other depiction) of your sighting of Elvis. Just send it to us with a form VA application and the $30 filing fee. No one can lawfully use your photo of your sighting, although someone else may file his own photo of his sighting. Copyright law protects the original photograph, not the subject of the photograph.
"How do I protect my sighting of Elvis?
Copyright law does not protect sightings. However, copyright law will protect your photo (or other depiction) of your sighting of Elvis. Just send it to us with a form VA application and the $30 filing fee. No one can lawfully use your photo of your sighting, although someone else may file his own photo of his sighting. Copyright law protects the original photograph, not the subject of the photograph.
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Peter D
New member
IceFairy - You can copyright any number of songs using the SR and/or PA forms for $30.00. The compilation must have one title. Once you receive the Certificate of Copyright for your compilation, you can then file additional forms amending the compilation that will give you protection of the songs individually. For me, a non-performing writer the compilation method works well. But, if you're a singer/songwriter and you're wanting to protect your performance (the recording itself) as well as the authorship of the song, you might want to file Form SR for 10 songs and file a Form TX for the lyrics of 500 songs. The idea is to protect yourself during the process of shopping and pitching your recordings or songs and also during the process of co-writing.
This is detailed stuff we're discussing and can't really be dealt with by one or two, or 30 posts. Get a copy of Randy Poe's "Songwriter's Guide to Music Publishing" or some of the other books that cover copyright law for musicians and songwriters. You don't necessarily have to have a lawyer to do this, but you do have to invest some time and effort in learning this stuff. You can save yourself a fair amout of money, but it's up to you to to see that you do it right.
This is detailed stuff we're discussing and can't really be dealt with by one or two, or 30 posts. Get a copy of Randy Poe's "Songwriter's Guide to Music Publishing" or some of the other books that cover copyright law for musicians and songwriters. You don't necessarily have to have a lawyer to do this, but you do have to invest some time and effort in learning this stuff. You can save yourself a fair amout of money, but it's up to you to to see that you do it right.
Gidge
Lapdance Test Dummy
Im sorry but putting a song on a compilation copyright and then changing it to a individual copyright will cause you no problems whatsoever, and will only cost you the amount of a new copyright ($30)......
please give me an example of how it could cost " hundreds, if not, several thousand dollars in filing fees".........
please give me an example of how it could cost " hundreds, if not, several thousand dollars in filing fees".........
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Peter D
New member
Gidge - The only way I know of that copyright fees could run into the hundreds or thousands of dollars is if you decide to do as publishing companies do and copyright each song separately, which would run you $30 per filing at the current rate.
I don't know why people have a problem using the compilation method. It certainly provides far more protection than the "Poor Man's Copyight". Unforunately, most people would rather try to find a loophole or exception to the law. There is no reason a person cannot do his/her own amendments and continuation forms, which as you point out can be done by paying another filing fee.
I don't know why people have a problem using the compilation method. It certainly provides far more protection than the "Poor Man's Copyight". Unforunately, most people would rather try to find a loophole or exception to the law. There is no reason a person cannot do his/her own amendments and continuation forms, which as you point out can be done by paying another filing fee.