How do the drums influence the arrangement of a song ?

[grimtraveller]

I was going to put this in the drum section but it’s actually a songwriting query, in the main.

I was listening to David Bowie’s “The Jean Genie” a few days ago. I’ve loved that track for over a quarter of a century. It’s got this irresistible rhythm, I can’t help but shake my head or tap my feet whenever I listen to it. I was listening really hard to the drums and the way Woody Woodmansey plays on the track. He says that on the album that came before {Ziggy}, he and the band had gone for a more minimalist way of playing but I was surprised at his playing on this track. It feels like he hardly does anything ! Pretty much all it is is kick-snare-kick-snare boof-tuck-boof-tuck with a little shing-shing-shing-shing on the hi hat just before the chorus and a very quiet cymbal during the chorus.

It got me to thinking about the ways different genres utilize drums and I thought it might be interesting to ask how different writers and recorders on the HR front approach drums on their tracks. I was really surprised at how little Woodmansey appears to do on the track (claps and percussion add to the rhythm).
How important to you are the drums ? Are they an integral part of the songs you come up with ? Are you thinking of drum patterns and rhythms as you write ? Or do you go for a ‘feel’ and leave it to the drummer to interpret what you’re trying to communicate ? If you’re a songwriting drummer, is it easy to come up with drum patterns for your songs ?

And with the availability of drum machines, rhythm tracks, samples, loops and the like, those that programme their drums, how important are the drums to your works ? Do you try to think like a drummer when programming ? Or do they simply provide beat and a time reference ?

There are a series of questions that I can’t even think of that others may think of. It seems that there is a good cross section here of drummers that only drum, drummers that also play percussion, drummers that play other non percussive instruments, multi-instrumentalists that drum, and those that don’t drum at all but play one or more instrument and sing. Is thinking ‘drummery’ necesarilly the preserve of only drummers ? And specifically to those that are drummers, do you have any observations in general about programmed drums (in terms of the actual programming, not whether they are the spawn of Satan )

And....away we go !

 

[Strat1958]

I think the drums really influence the sound of a track. I especially love the drumming on Abbey Road and all of the early Elton John stuff, played by Nigel Olsson. I don't know how many times in the past 35 years I have played all the drum fills in 'Someone Saved My Life Tonight' on my steering wheel!

I love programming drums...as a singer/guitarist who can kinda play real drums, I love the thought that goes into programming a rhythm track.

I use software called PC Drummer, super easy to use. See below for a screenshot of my last song.

 

[Manslick]

All I need is a groove.

Not a dis man. You really laid out a lot here.

If I can groove then I'm done. How I get there is a mystery.

I think the broad answer is soul. But don't quote me on that.

+

 

[miroslav]

It ain't Rock & Roll without drums.

There are drummers that mainly focus on holding a solid beat, and there are drummers that make music with their drums and provided both rhythmic foundation and counterpoint to the other music elements.
It's not about drumming complexity...it's how the drums fit in with the other instruments that counts.

Even though I don't get crazy with pushing the drums way up front in the mix...I still feel they are the most important element in Rock/Pop music...
...often in a very subliminal way.
IOW...the guitars and melodies wouldn't sound as good if the drums didn't blend the right way.

 

[Greg_L]

Drums are the most important part of any song. Songs without drums suck.

 

[grimtraveller]

Drums are the most important part of any song.

There are drummers that mainly focus on holding a solid beat, and there are drummers that make music with their drums and provided both rhythmic foundation and counterpoint to the other music elements......

It's how the drums fit in with the other instruments that counts.

I still feel they are the most important element in Rock/Pop music...
...often in a very subliminal way.
IOW...the guitars and melodies wouldn't sound as good if the drums didn't blend the right way.

As I dig folk and classical among others, I am into hundreds of pieces that don't have drums in them. But they are a completely different proposition. For me it's notable that almost every genre of popular [and unpopular ! ] music from the start of the 20th century utilizes drums. And even outside of the Western world, many ethnic forms of music utilize drums. And even those forms of music like classical and folk utilize percussion in drum-like ways.
For me, it's the one instrument that has to be gotten absolutely right or it just messes up the feel of a song. I overheard my 8 year old son telling his little brother that the drums "provides the rhythm, beat and pulse" and I thought, yeah and so much more. For me they are a very musical instrument. You can have every instrument doing exactly the same thing through a song and yet, that song can change dramatically in almost every way many times over, just by what the drummer plays and how.
I was thinking today that drums are the instrument that have given me the most hassle in all the years I've been trying to record my bits and pieces. Just about the only reasons I've just started a song all over again (other than not being happy with a mix) have been because the drums didn't feel right. Over the years I've driven my drumming friends nuts as I try to get them to give me what I'm looking for. Many a time, we've gone through 30-40 takes of something coz I'm thinking, "I don't want to be coming back to this four years from now !".
I like to leave space for various people to imprint their person on my silly little songs, be it vocally or instrumentally. But nowadays I think long and hard about the drums (I always have actually but often would sacrifice that so the drummer would be able to do their thing.) and I know the patterns and/or the feel that I'm going for.
I'm also thankful for digital editing in case of disobedience !

 

[RAMI]

Drums are always important. Whether they're an integral part of what makes a song memorable or not, depends on the song. MJ's "Do You Want to be Starting Something" is a 1 bar pattern (not 2 or 4....ONE!) looped entirely throughout the song. Not one variation. Now, whether you're a Michael Jackson fan or not, that tune grooves likes there's no tomorrow, because it's such a great little drum machine pattern (as far as drum machine patterns go), even though it's as repetitive as anything can be.

Um.....I have no idea where I was going with this, but I'm pretty sure there was a reason I started typing it...

 

[grimtraveller]

I'm-a-groova-dooving to the beat. Well, I was...

Drums are always important. Whether they're an integral part of what makes a song memorable or not, depends on the song.

...often in a very subliminal way.
IOW...the guitars and melodies wouldn't sound as good if the drums didn't blend the right way.

I think the drums play this really weird role. They definitely can be integral to what makes a song memorable {like in Rami's example} and I think that along with the vocal, are part of what initially grabs the ear. Not necesarilly the intricacy of the pattern, just the overall presence of that feel and that sound. Just observe any kid and how they react to music with drums. The way they frame songs is kind of subliminal, yet if they weren't there, it'd be so noticeable.
It's interesting that through so much of popular music's history, drummers have been the butt of jokes and derogatory comments. You don't get too many guitarist jokes or pianist jokes or bass player jokes or tenor sax player jokes etc. Drummers are so often looked at as thick sluggers that just 'sit at the back'. Yet the contribution of them towers HUGE and looms large over so many genres. There are loads of great drumless songs ('Lady Jane', 'Norwegian Wood', 'The best years of my life' etc) but they are so in the minority. I don't think it's exaggerating to say that drums have proved foundational to live and recorded music since the traps kit first appeared at the start of the 20th century.
I was thinking the other day of all of those drum players, mostly uncredited and barely known, that have helped progress modern music. It wasn't just a case of laying down a rudimentary slap.They had to find new and different ways of adapting and matching drums to the ever progressing musical innovations of bandmates, artists, producers, writers etc. Reggae, latin, prog, fusion, funk, rock'n'roll, psychedelia, jazz, to name but a tiny few, ways had to be evolved to accomodate these new directions. Of course they did for all instruments, but the versatility of the drums in shaping different genres goes way beyond any other that I can think of.

 

[M1Fanatic]

I hate programming drums, but I do it. I think it's just as important for the drums to compliment the music as the rest of the instruments.

 

[grimtraveller]

I wonder just how much people listen to drums in songs and what the drums are doing. When writing songs, is a groove enough or is there more ? I remember Rami making a point in another thread about non drummers programming drums and doing things that actual drummers wouldn't do, that really has me thinking about this one. I've come to respect those programming their drums more in recent months and wondered how they approach them in relation to their songs.

 

[fearfeasog]

I'd love to do an experiment along these lines: write/record a song, without drums. then give it to 4 different drummers (perhaps who each specialize in a different genre?) and have them all record their take on the tune. I'd love to see how different people approach the same material with different ideas to make it all work.

 

[grimtraveller]

I'm still curious as to the way people approach the drums in their songs. Do people think of the drums as "just there" or are they integral to the arrangement of the songs ? Another way of putting this ~ the songs that have drums, would something fundamental be lost if there were no drums ?

 

[Armistice]

As you know GT, I'm in an acoustic band, writing songs for two acoustic guitars and voices... no drums... When I record them, however, there are few that don't benefit from having drums added, and some absolutely spring to life and I have trouble listening to the non-drum recordings after that.

I find the arrangement tends to influence the "drums" (and also as you know, I'm talking programming...) rather than the other way around though. I can really use the drums to emphasise the bits that need it.

I'm also keenly aware of how easy it is to program crap drums, and also RAMI's point about doing things that real drummers wouldn't, or couldn't do. So I'm always trying to make sure I'm only using 2 hands and feet at any one time and listening to real drummers and trying to create things via programming, that they would do... ain't easy though, for a non-drummer... fills especially. Although I place every single hit via a MIDI sequencer and vary volumes and positions deliberately, fills, particularly on the snare, are hard bastards to get right....

Anyway, that's another thread, I guess...

 

[arbiboy]

I like to programme a drum beat and once i feel a good vibe I find a tune to go with the beat. After that I try to find a hook......its where i always get stuck but after the hook, lyrics pour into my head like a waterfall I use Fl Studio to programme beats seriously, you gotta get it (if you prefer this way). It might be confusing at first but if you just watch a couple of youtube videos and spend at least 3 hours on it, you'll be rocking like the clappers

 

[stevieb]

..I can’t help but shake my head or tap my feet whenever I listen to it. I was listening really hard to the drums...

It got me to thinking about the ways different genres utilize drums and I thought it might be interesting to ask how different writers and recorders on the HR front approach drums on their tracks...

1 How important to you are the drums?

2 Are they an integral part of the songs you come up with ?
Are you thinking of drum patterns and rhythms as you write ? Or do you go for a ‘feel’ and leave it to the drummer to interpret what you’re trying to communicate ?

3 And with the availability of drum machines, rhythm tracks, samples, loops and the like, those that programme their drums, how important are the drums to your works ?

4 There are a series of questions that I can’t even think of that others may think of. It seems that there is a good cross section here of drummers that only drum, drummers that also play percussion, drummers that play other non percussive instruments, multi-instrumentalists that drum, and those that don’t drum at all but play one or more instrument and sing.

Quoted and edited, and inserted the bold numbers, so I can address the questions I left in.

1. I'd say drums are rather important to me, in general, but it depends on the song and genre. I was the one to encourage a member of my mostly-guitar group, when he told me he was mostly a drummer, to play drums with us, I even sold him a basic kit at my cost so he would have drums to play. But, some songs just do not need, or even benefit, from drums. (Of course you would expect Greg to say all songs need drums, he is, after all, a drummer.)

2. When i write songs, I write them with a guitar, my voice, pencil and paper- and maybe a chord chart. I sometimes "hear" a drum track in the song, but I don't write it down- I find it way too tedious to try. When I am playing the song with a drummer and kit in the room, I usually let him/her play what they "hear," only if it does not fit or equal what I "hear" do I ask them to make changes. I'd say about 75% of the time, I am about 75% fine with what the drummer does. the other 25-25 I am usually able to communicate to the drummer what I want.

3. I have never used a drum machine as my primary source of drums, but occasionally have as supplement or underlayment for the drummer. I don't expect that to change.

4. I am somewhere between "multi-instrumentalists that drum" and "those that don’t drum at all but play one or more instrument and sing." I have not mastered the "walk, chew gum, pat your head, rub your tummy, and recite the Gettysburg Address at the same time" sort of thing drummers do, but I do pretty well with hand drums (congas are my favorite) and hand percussion toys. (I do manage to play bones and a shaker on one song, but it's always feels like a lot of mental processing- I don't know how drummers do what they do.)

So, to sum up, I hear and like drums in most songs, and most of my songs, but not all of them. But if a drummer can sidle his way into a song that I did not imagine drums in, and make it work for me, I'm happy to have him along, as long as he can take direction.

Oh, and my drummers are usually carbon, not silicon, based.

 

[Beat Poet]

In the bands I've played in and the songwriters I've worked with, I've found many ways to add little nuances to the structure of songs - by not actually playing a thing. There are loads of places in songs where you can insert a short break (drop the drums out and let the guitars ring) and have everyone come back in. That works well going into choruses, as you can hit the listener with something unexpected, rather than a predictable build-up.

If you're doing a song that "builds", even the simplest drum beat coming in after the guitar, vocals and bass can sound so damn powerful.

 

[Emerson Maningo]

I agree, there is a high probability of hit songs being on a band with great drummers. Think of Led Zeppelin, Nirvana, Beatles, Metallica, Bon Jovi, they have creative and good drummers. The song structure and arrangement is often influenced by the rhythm and beat of the drummer. In their songwriting sessions, the drummers are often involved in the production of the complete song although some of their drummers are not direct contributors of melody and lyrics; their playing style influenced a lot in many of their hit compositions.

 

[Beat Poet]

In fact (going back to the thread title), drummers do influence the arrangement of songs, simply because we look at songs structurally, in terms of bars, beats and general numbers. After a song's been written, the writers will take it to the drummer, who will be the first to suggest maybe doubling this bit here or going half time there.

 

[Clam Soup]

I don't think drums ifluence the structure of the stuff I write, but like Miroslov and Armistice, I'm keenly aware of how much more they add to the whole song when they are employed.

Sometimes I hear the drums in a certain style before they are there, and other times I like to let the drummer use their sense of time and interpretation to fill the vacancy. In the end, it all depends on the individual song and whether we are serving the song or serving something else.

I've never used a drum program, but I might try it at some point if I can't fill that spot with a human. My preference is always for people who complete the whole sound through both commitment and unity. For me a large portion of a songs magic and credibility lays within the common understanding of a single mood or thought shared by 4 or 5 individuals - including the drums.

I have written two or three tunes that run into the "lullaby" genre and I'm real curious about how the drums are going to feed that spirit? Maybe just light brushes on the symbols here and there? We'll see.

 

[ido1957]

POETICINTENSITY added drums to all my tunes and brought the songs up several notches. Basically day and night...