Ford Van
Banned
Thunder33 said:
Cool. The retard speaks!
Cool. The retard speaks!
Thunder33
New member
Ford Van said:Cool. The retard speaks!
Wow! Well at least I know what I am dealing with here. Instead of having an intelligent converstation, I guess we are just going to have a 3rd grade name calling match. Well, you will Ford, you win. I could never possibly hope to be able to stand up to such wit.
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
I knew Ed would chime in with something like that.
Like usual, he doesn't understand my point.
Like usual, he doesn't understand my point.
M
mud
New member
Basically though....everyone starts somewhere, no-one is just given a gift and uses it to it's full potential straight off.
If you really do want to master other peoples recordings then go to college/uni and learn. Get some work in a mastering studio as a teaboy n shit like that, someday you may get what it's all about and come up trumps.
If you want to do all the tracking yourself in your home studio then why not? As long as you remember that giving your ears time to reset, paying out for good gear and there's no real substitutes for good quality recordings....is very important.
I choose to record and master my own mixes but this is due, at this moment in time, being only small fry and not lookin to go balls out spending money i dont have. But my first priority IS recording quality, good tracking means a better end product. The cleaner the end product, if you so wish, will make the mastering engineers job a hell of a lot easier and will more than likely end up with your final master being exceptionally good.
It's pointless hitting people up about wanting to master and wanting the info. Maybe someone should produce a good mastering tutorial with a disclaimer that could be made as a sticky at the top for all those interested in what they need to do.
With computers n such these days it is true that you can get a damn good quality recording done and a reasonable master....but if you want the cream of the crop then you'd best be willing to pay over the top.
If you really do want to master other peoples recordings then go to college/uni and learn. Get some work in a mastering studio as a teaboy n shit like that, someday you may get what it's all about and come up trumps.
If you want to do all the tracking yourself in your home studio then why not? As long as you remember that giving your ears time to reset, paying out for good gear and there's no real substitutes for good quality recordings....is very important.
I choose to record and master my own mixes but this is due, at this moment in time, being only small fry and not lookin to go balls out spending money i dont have. But my first priority IS recording quality, good tracking means a better end product. The cleaner the end product, if you so wish, will make the mastering engineers job a hell of a lot easier and will more than likely end up with your final master being exceptionally good.
It's pointless hitting people up about wanting to master and wanting the info. Maybe someone should produce a good mastering tutorial with a disclaimer that could be made as a sticky at the top for all those interested in what they need to do.
With computers n such these days it is true that you can get a damn good quality recording done and a reasonable master....but if you want the cream of the crop then you'd best be willing to pay over the top.
Ford Van
Banned
Thunder33 said:
Your original sarcasm was "intelligent conversation". Give me a break moron!
Ford Van
Banned
Massive Master said:
What I usually get out of your "points" about mastering John is:
"It is really hard to do, and here is why......."
"You probably are not up to that task"
I will take you seriously at wanting to HELP PEOPLE LEARN how to master when you:
1 - Actually ask somebody to post a mix, run it through some plugins, list your result, and talk about what you did.
or
2 - Actually write SOMETHING useful about eq/comrpession/limiting techniques you use and why.
and
3 - Remove the link to your "service" from your signature.
Otherwise, it just sort of seems like you are fishing for more business.
Nick98338
New member
IMHO my "Master" is just my final version that I'm burning to CD. "Mastering" includes dithering my final mix down to a 16 bit, 2 channel stereo .wav file. Adjusting fade-outs. Adding some silence at beginning and end of each song to put a little space between songs on the CD. Adjusting volume to normal "CD" level. Naming the songs. Put the songs in the desired order. Burn to CD. To me, "Mastering" doesn't have anything to do with adjusting the sound of the music. I do all that in the "mixing" stage. To me, the "mastering" stage is the easiest part of the whole process.
T
Theros
New member
Hmmm Ford, I've had more then a few useful posts from massive, and I agree slightly that is made out to be a mystic art, but you certainly cant expect him to:
A: Spend ages away from work doing non-paying work(IE writing tutorials), which is his choice... and...
B: Give away tips and hints that make his business stand above others, if there even are any. (Would you go into KFC and ask what that white powder crap on the outside of their chicken exactly is?)
Maybe the possibility of experience can creep in here, I would certainly expectan M.E. of 30 years to create a master better then that of 2 months...
He spends his time answering reasonable questions on here... which is more then he is required to do...
Bleh...
A: Spend ages away from work doing non-paying work(IE writing tutorials), which is his choice... and...
B: Give away tips and hints that make his business stand above others, if there even are any. (Would you go into KFC and ask what that white powder crap on the outside of their chicken exactly is?)
Maybe the possibility of experience can creep in here, I would certainly expectan M.E. of 30 years to create a master better then that of 2 months...
He spends his time answering reasonable questions on here... which is more then he is required to do...
Bleh...
Ford Van
Banned
mud said:
Yeah, and that is what this website is all about! Mostly, with a few exceptions, everybody is here to SHARE HELPFUL INFORMATION ABOUT HOW TO DO SOMETHING.
Well, like all things audio, you don't learn per se by text book instruction, you learn by DOING IT, and having some meaningful direction by people that have done it before and maybe step you thru trying some things, and share some insight into why they make certain decisions.
Right!
Indeed!
Now wouldn't it be great if the supposed "pro's" in mastering around here who spend SO MUCH TIME telling everybody how difficult it would be for them to master their own music, actually did something HELPFUL like writing a tutorial. THAT would be in the spirit of this BBS, which is to help guys achieve better results in their home recordings!
I have to admit, when I used to engineer for a "living", I purposing held back information about stuff. Who wants to give away "tricks" and "secrets" about their work from potential clients!
Oh, I would still look rosie to some for sharing some "insight" that you could get for ANYBODY in the business with a similar agenda! But sharing the REAL GOODS? Hell no! Why help YOU get better so that you would NEVER need my services? I see certain people doing that same thing here. You decide who is doing that based on the HELPFUL stuff they have shared on the subject matter in the past.Yes! But, many people have achieved outstanding results with cheap gear. Whether by luck or by a knowledge of what they were doing, and being careful to work around problem areas of cheap gear.
The power available to manipulate audio in the computer is ASTOUNDING! Even 5 years ago some of the most powerful stuff was in it's infancy stage, and was only available on $30,000 DAWs! Now, you have these kinds of editing/mixing/mastering capabilities on a $2000 DAW! Truely ASTOUNDING!
Ford Van
Banned
Theros said:
Think that through a bit more. And, think about what this BBS is about!
There are professionals in other parts of this BBS sharing INTIMATE DETAILS about how they do certain things with certain gear, and how they achieve certain results.
John would serve this BBS well by asking people to master something, having them post a before and after mp3, and commenting on what he hears and offering some suggestions to improve it.
No, he is under no obligation to do so, nor to spend huge amounts of time doing so. But, then you have to ask yourself why he is here in the first place if not to HELP!
What if I answered with something like that every time somebody asked about how people approach recording a drum set? LOL I would get more
icons than you can count.I don't get what "helpful" stuff John has EVER posted. He sounds like a broken record here! He might as well just cut/paste his normal response to all things mastering and have it be a sticky.
C
Cloneboy Studio
.
Ford Van said:
I don't see why you feel the need to put down professionals that are making a living at audio engineering. Just because you aren't--or couldn't--doesn't mean you have to try to make yourself out to be oh-so-superior.
Trust me, one is made neither moral nor immoral by the size of one's pocketbook. And crumbs from cake beats eating a pound of hardtack.
Just making some observations here.
E
easychair
New member
I think Ford is being a bit hard on John, but his basic point is valid. I feel the problem isn't all about the pros not posting detailed help, though. They can't really be held responsible for what someone makes of their posts. Nor should someone be necessarily taken to task because they aren't helpful enough.
Letting myths perpetuate sucks, though, especially if they feed off your posts.
The misunderstood responses of many actually experienced people has perpetuated a "Choir of Idiots" whose sole purpose seems to be trolling mastering threads and telling everyone mastering is impossible, or brain surgery, or as dangerous as nuclear waste. If this kind of stuff was in a forum about tracking, nothing would ever get recorded. Plus, every pro within a hundred miles would be telling the idiots to blow.
I think the board could be equally well served at first by the pros even just taking some time to shut the idiot choir up. One of the big helps of pro posters is correcting bad info, which is great in and of itself.
Letting myths perpetuate sucks, though, especially if they feed off your posts.
The misunderstood responses of many actually experienced people has perpetuated a "Choir of Idiots" whose sole purpose seems to be trolling mastering threads and telling everyone mastering is impossible, or brain surgery, or as dangerous as nuclear waste. If this kind of stuff was in a forum about tracking, nothing would ever get recorded. Plus, every pro within a hundred miles would be telling the idiots to blow.
I think the board could be equally well served at first by the pros even just taking some time to shut the idiot choir up. One of the big helps of pro posters is correcting bad info, which is great in and of itself.
H
Harvey Gerst
New member
I certainly don't want to add fuel to the fire, but most of the mastering rooms I've seen contain some of the following equipment:
Speakers:
Duntech, Quested, or Wilson's
Amplifiers:
Bryston or Perraux
EQ:
Weiss
Now let's just talk about those 3 irems. Any of those speakers will run you about $8,000 to $20,000 each.
Add about $3,500 for the amplifier.
The Weiss EQ's (you'll need two) go for $7,000 to $9,000 each.
The room treatments alone are expensive beyond belief.
Now let's talk about Mastering Engineers; they don't mix, they don't play, they don't produce - they just listen, all day long, every day, for a lot of years.
Can you duplicate that on a pair of nearfield speakers, with a home stereo amplifier, in your converted studio, using a PC with some mastering plug-ins?
Maybe, if you're VERY lucky, but for most of you, the answer will be no. You can however, make it a little bit better if you're willing to take your time and experiment.
The idea that plugins and software can instantly make you a mastering god (or a professional engineer) is way overrated; it takes time - time to educate your ears, and time to learn the tools you have available.
The idea of buying "Instant Pro-In-A-Box" may sound enticing, but it's not there yet.
Live with what you have, and learn how to use it. As you learn the limitations of your equipment, you'll also learn what to get next.
And one day, you'll suddenly realize that somewhere along the way, you became a pro.
Speakers:
Duntech, Quested, or Wilson's
Amplifiers:
Bryston or Perraux
EQ:
Weiss
Now let's just talk about those 3 irems. Any of those speakers will run you about $8,000 to $20,000 each.
Add about $3,500 for the amplifier.
The Weiss EQ's (you'll need two) go for $7,000 to $9,000 each.
The room treatments alone are expensive beyond belief.
Now let's talk about Mastering Engineers; they don't mix, they don't play, they don't produce - they just listen, all day long, every day, for a lot of years.
Can you duplicate that on a pair of nearfield speakers, with a home stereo amplifier, in your converted studio, using a PC with some mastering plug-ins?
Maybe, if you're VERY lucky, but for most of you, the answer will be no. You can however, make it a little bit better if you're willing to take your time and experiment.
The idea that plugins and software can instantly make you a mastering god (or a professional engineer) is way overrated; it takes time - time to educate your ears, and time to learn the tools you have available.
The idea of buying "Instant Pro-In-A-Box" may sound enticing, but it's not there yet.
Live with what you have, and learn how to use it. As you learn the limitations of your equipment, you'll also learn what to get next.
And one day, you'll suddenly realize that somewhere along the way, you became a pro.
apl
Stand Up Comity
Ford Van said:
TTTWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTT!
Improper use of apostrophe. 15 yard penalty, loss of down.
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
Harvey's answer aside (which you can always count on to make good sense, by the way), the thing that Ed keeps not understanding is that he already knows what sounds good. I'm assuming he HAS the ear AND the gear to get it done to where he's happy with it. Yes, even after all the crap I've put up with on other forums, I'm giving him a compliment.
99% of the people who post "How do I master my sh*t" on these forums don't even understand the basic concept. They think that throwing plugs at a mix is going to make it sound "pro" when they can't even get their *core sounds* workable in the first place. A lot of the time, they don't even *care* about the sound quality - They just want it to be LOUDER and they're looking for a shortcut that doesn't exist.
I'm not going to say "Sure! Use a maul-the-band compressor on it and it'll be great!" because that just won't happen. There's enough of that on the forums already - and much of it comes from OTHER people who can't get their sounds in line.
And I can't even count how many hours I've spent making suggestions to reasonable quesitons, posting effective "bang-for-the-buck" mastering rig solutions to those who have an idea of what they're shooting for, etc.
I've done my share of "master-offs" and when asked, given particularly detailed accounts of equipment, exact settings, and *why* I decided on what gear to use and why I used those settings.
And I always encourage experimentation - But realistically speaking, experimenting on something you're so invested in alreasy doesn't make sense. It goes right back to the "why didn't you do that in the mix?" problem. Instead, I always suggest that budding engineers "buddy up" or network with others in their situation. Experiment on something you've never heard before.
Call me old fashioned, but that objectivity is one of the most important parts of the process, IMO.
I can't tell you how many mastering sessions I sat in at when I was more into tracking & mixing... Some of the sessions, the M.E. would hardly touch a thing. Other times, issues would come up that I couldn't believe got past me the whole time.
And there's no doubt that some of my replies to questions like that seem... flippant (?) to a point. But after you answer the same question six hundred times, some might tend to get a little jaded.
But do you really think that after I post these "you're not up to the task" answers to some of these guys that they're actually going to want ME to work on their projects?!? I'd bet that I LOSE more potential clients by posting on the forums than I'd ever gain. "That asshole - What the hell does he know..." But if those answers stop them for a minute and makes them think about it more clearly - It's all worth it in the long run.
99% of the people who post "How do I master my sh*t" on these forums don't even understand the basic concept. They think that throwing plugs at a mix is going to make it sound "pro" when they can't even get their *core sounds* workable in the first place. A lot of the time, they don't even *care* about the sound quality - They just want it to be LOUDER and they're looking for a shortcut that doesn't exist.
I'm not going to say "Sure! Use a maul-the-band compressor on it and it'll be great!" because that just won't happen. There's enough of that on the forums already - and much of it comes from OTHER people who can't get their sounds in line.
And I can't even count how many hours I've spent making suggestions to reasonable quesitons, posting effective "bang-for-the-buck" mastering rig solutions to those who have an idea of what they're shooting for, etc.
I've done my share of "master-offs" and when asked, given particularly detailed accounts of equipment, exact settings, and *why* I decided on what gear to use and why I used those settings.
And I always encourage experimentation - But realistically speaking, experimenting on something you're so invested in alreasy doesn't make sense. It goes right back to the "why didn't you do that in the mix?" problem. Instead, I always suggest that budding engineers "buddy up" or network with others in their situation. Experiment on something you've never heard before.
Call me old fashioned, but that objectivity is one of the most important parts of the process, IMO.
I can't tell you how many mastering sessions I sat in at when I was more into tracking & mixing... Some of the sessions, the M.E. would hardly touch a thing. Other times, issues would come up that I couldn't believe got past me the whole time.
And there's no doubt that some of my replies to questions like that seem... flippant (?) to a point. But after you answer the same question six hundred times, some might tend to get a little jaded.
Well, if you didn't notice, I AM!!! I run ads (even here at HR), I have a link in my signature, but I don't "pimp" myself - I don't try to convince people to use me for their projects. If they decide to, that's fine.
But do you really think that after I post these "you're not up to the task" answers to some of these guys that they're actually going to want ME to work on their projects?!? I'd bet that I LOSE more potential clients by posting on the forums than I'd ever gain. "That asshole - What the hell does he know..." But if those answers stop them for a minute and makes them think about it more clearly - It's all worth it in the long run.
Last edited:
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
BTW, Harvey - Saw you and Alex in PSN earlier today - Nice. 
M
mud
New member
One of the biggest problems with boards tends to be that most people come on in high hopes of leaving with a degree in mastering audio and everything else they can fit into google.
But one of the best things about these boards is that we have access to engineers and folk who have spent hardgraft in the industry.
The problem is this, people get fed up of replying to the same threads based on the same subjects only to get shot down or end up in an arguement about everything and nothing.
What i would like to see, is some of the professionals in the business, new & old, come up with a tutorial or set of faq's n such based on these subjects. You DONT have to give out your secrets, if anything, by showing what you can do to get the best at home....you'll reap the benefits if people realise that it could be so much better done professionally.
As i said in a post earlier, im just tracking away at home, im neither a master at tracking or at final masters but i do what i can to a good enough level and research what i need to know to get done what i need.
Granted without spending 10's of 1000's on equipment....i wont get the pro sound im looking for, but i should damn well be able to get a good enough sound that the layman can listen to it without noticing it's homegrown.
If, as i said, you guys really want to help people then it's a case of spending a little of your free time, perhaps giving info on some reasonable plugins n such which can be used to get a better sounding outcome. Add this to helping to understand what we should be looking for and that would mean most would be more than happy.
So would you guys be willing to do that? perhaps get the forum guys to make it sticky?
But one of the best things about these boards is that we have access to engineers and folk who have spent hardgraft in the industry.
The problem is this, people get fed up of replying to the same threads based on the same subjects only to get shot down or end up in an arguement about everything and nothing.
What i would like to see, is some of the professionals in the business, new & old, come up with a tutorial or set of faq's n such based on these subjects. You DONT have to give out your secrets, if anything, by showing what you can do to get the best at home....you'll reap the benefits if people realise that it could be so much better done professionally.
As i said in a post earlier, im just tracking away at home, im neither a master at tracking or at final masters but i do what i can to a good enough level and research what i need to know to get done what i need.
Granted without spending 10's of 1000's on equipment....i wont get the pro sound im looking for, but i should damn well be able to get a good enough sound that the layman can listen to it without noticing it's homegrown.
If, as i said, you guys really want to help people then it's a case of spending a little of your free time, perhaps giving info on some reasonable plugins n such which can be used to get a better sounding outcome. Add this to helping to understand what we should be looking for and that would mean most would be more than happy.
So would you guys be willing to do that? perhaps get the forum guys to make it sticky?
Wish
Never Sarcastic....Honest
There's a bunch of links on mastering here:
http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com/articles9.htm
And a whole bunch of stuff on all things recording at the main directory:
http://theprojectstudiohandbook.com/directory.htm
http://www.theprojectstudiohandbook.com/articles9.htm
And a whole bunch of stuff on all things recording at the main directory:
http://theprojectstudiohandbook.com/directory.htm
H
Harvey Gerst
New member
Thank you. Pro Sound News did a really nice 2-page spread in their NAMM issue on us recording the Feds' new album here. We have Spoon Feed Tribe coming in next month for their new album. And there's some label interest for two of the groups we've recorded, so I guess we must be doing something right.Massive Master said:BTW, Harvey - Saw you and Alex in PSN earlier today - Nice.
M
mud
New member
Wish14 said:
Thanx for those, even things like this are more likely to help than people bitching at eachother and in the end means we can enjoy a good forum instead of gettin annoyed and lookin for the next one without bikkering.
