how do I kill the 'cheap-o' frequency?

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maryslittlesecret

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Howdy, all. Over the past months, I've been working on my mixes more seriously (with much help from the mp3 mixing clinic) and, IMHO, I'm making some progress -- except for one elusive issue...

It seems that everything I've ever recorded, regardless of what gear I'm using, has this 'done in my house' frequency to it. I can't pinpoint what it is exactly, but it seems like there's an almost inaudible presence that I never hear on professional CDs, or on projects recorded with people who really know their way around their own home studio.

I know this is a strange and (no doubt) complicated question, but could you take a listen to one or two of my mixes (available at http://www.mp3.com/30SoS) and let me know if there's something I'm overlooking? Any input is appreciated -- assume I know nothing (which isn't far from the truth). Thanks!

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS
 
It's probably not so much a magical frequency, but the equipment you're using and/or the room you're recording them in.

However, from what I listened to your music, it doesn't sound so "cheapo" to me.

-Sal
 
I think your mixes sound great. Not my type of music but from what I heared very balansed and clean. I think a lot of commercial stuff is mastered/compressed and thats where that "finished pro" sound comes from.
 
First of all, the performances are great.... no need to change anything there. ;)

The drums "pop" rather than thump. I mean, you've got all this heavy low-end on the guitar and bass tracks, but the drums lack that "kick in the chest" thump that the guitars have.
The drum tracks are stellar, so put that "thump" (a boost in the 50 - 70Hz range) in 'em and bring their volume up just a bit.

Is that an AKG C3000 on lead vocals?
It's too harsh in the upper-mids.
(I own one, and it sounds just like a C3000 to me...)

Running the vocal tracks through a hi-quality tube preamp and back into your computer would do wonders.
You need some tube saturation to warm those vocals up.

A "tube mic" would REALLY put some balls on the vocal tracks! :)
 
Thanks for the input and suggestions...

SalJustSal -- I'm glad it doesn't sound 'cheap-o' to you. I don't think it sounds horrible either, but it's still not as tight and professional sounding as I'd like. And I don't think it's the gear, since I've changed just about every piece of equipment I've had over the years and I still end up with this sound...

Fed -- I think you may be right in terms of the mastering and compression. I know professional mastering is an art, but is there anything I can do here at home? I have a ton of plug-ins to work with -- could you give me any suggestions on applying them, settings, etc.?

Buck62 -- thanks for posting for us here as well. we've appreciated your input in the mp3 clinic. I'll definitely have to try the drum eq, but since we use a drum machine, it'll have to be an all or nothing boost. do you think that would still work (and any advice on how much/broad of a boost)? And you guessed the mic on the nose -- i've heard the same thing about the c3000. any suggestions on a warm (and affordable) preamp -- preferrably something 'general' that I could also use on keys, etc.?

No one has really said "I hear what you're talking about" in terms of the wierd presence in the mixes -- am I hearing things or being hyper-critical? Feel free to let me know if I'm off my nut as well... :rolleyes: Thanks!

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS
 
maryslittlesecret
sorry I'm defenatly noot qualified to give compression tip.
My newbie status is right on. I played with compression on my mixes and it seem to soften things up a bit and take this kind of
"room" presence from the mix. May be thats what you are talking about. This all very subjective but I think I hear it on things I record too.

I would search and ask in mixing clinic on compression use. From what I understand for your style of music compression is used extensively. not that there are any hard rules. ;) See if you can get like one song mastered proffesionaly and see if it makes a differece.

It's unbelivable that someone can actualy point out what mic was used from the mix. But there you go. Hats off Buck62.

I listened to the second song and the vocal does have some harshness I have to agree there. I wonder if you can improve it with mic placement. Little angle, more distance.

Sorry couldn't help you with compression. :(

cheers
 
I don't think there's such a thing as being over-critical :)

That being said though, I'd say your mix sounds pretty good. Which drum machine are you using? You've got the option of recording the drums MIDI, then bringing each drum back in one at a time to regain some control (pain in the ass, I know but you've got a lot more flexibility with tracked drums). Or you might try a high pass filter to isolate the kick.

Also, I think Buck's suggestion of running the Vocs through some tubes would really help beef it up.
 
I've heard the sound you are talking about too. I remember in my hard mix of "Complete" it sounded completely different. I remember attributing it to the Cubase sound. But I think you're in Vegas or Sonar now, right? However, there are a few things I can recommend.

1) Change the guitar sound, it's a little too scooped in the mids, and a little too "fluffy." Add in a guitar that's got some midrange.

2) Compress the bass, and work with the eq on it. It just doesn't cut in a nice round way like I expect a bass to do.

3) If all else fails, start over with each mix. Seriously, bing the drums and bass up, then bring in the vocal, because remember that's the focal point of the music. Then mix the guitars in. Then go back over and over it, until the balances sound right. Now go after the things that sound cheap... and cut out some offending frequencies with eq. A good way to do this is to set a narrow Q (bandwidth) on your eg, then boost or cut a ton, and sweep the frequency range around to hear what pops out or disappears. (Note: this is how you FIND which frequencies are doing what. After you find them, widen the Q, and don't boost or cut much at all. If you start to go over a few dB boosting or cutting on a software eq, other factors come into play that will do your music more harm than good.)

4) Something has to be done about those drums. When I experimented with your drum tracks, one thing I found had an immediate positive impact was compressing them. In your genre, snare and kick drums are way compressed. Go for a compression ratio of 3:1 - 4:1, an attack time of from 10-15 ms, and a release time of 100-150 ms to start. Pull down the ratio until you start to hear something better (and adjust the output gain to make up for it). There should still be a lot of snap and pop to the drums, but less of that nasty cardboardy sound, it should be overall much smoother.

As far as home mastering goes, I would say don't do it. But if you are determined to do it, strap the L2 across the stereo bus and get it loud but not distorted.

If I can help you with anything, drop me a line.
 
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A follow-up. What kind of monitors are you using? How loud do you monitor?
 
I recorded the mp3 of your Superman song on to my PC last night and put it under the microscope for a while. Did some 'mastering' like stuff with it. Put it through some multi-band compression, EQ, de-essing, etc. I found that I could tame some of those 'nasties' you're talking about, but the overall mix falls flat while gaining that control. From what I can determine, most of what has that 'cheapo' sound is in the vocal area. There is quite a bump in the 3-5khz area of the vocal that tends to stick out quite a bit, and if I tame those frequencies in the overall mix, then it starts to interfere with other sounds, like guitars and percussion. I would agree that warming up the vocal sound is the best place to start, but I'm not sure that running it through any tube circuitry will help all that much. You might want to look into a different mic for your voice, as that C3000 is not flattering it. A mic with a warmer midrange and some high end sparkle should do the trick.

Aside from the vocal harshness, I think that mix is pretty good overall, and if you follow some of Charger's advice, you'll tune it in even better.

Keep up the good work. :)
 
Wow -- this thread has really taken off. Thanks for all the input!

Fed -- pro mastering would be a good test. if i can justify the cash, i may give it a shot (though I'd rather spend it on gear) :D

Seanmorse79 -- we're using a BOSS DR-660, which seems to fit us as well as any drum machine (we'd much rather have the real thing). however, suggestions on other drum machines or sound modules are always welcome... we've adjusted the drums tones within the drum machine to try and fit around the other tracks, but we haven't 'effected' them individually. I'm not sure how I'd do that since they're all together on two stereo outputs... can you explain?

charger -- always great advice, man -- we really appreciate it. Main question -- wouldn't compressing the drum machine squash the cymbals? I've though about doing it but figured it'd do more damage than good. I'm with you on boosting the guitar mids, though I do like how big they sound currently... I've started toying with the bass a little and think that there will be a noticable improvement on the next track we post. And I have Alesis M1 powered monitors, usually pumped up pretty loud... BTW, i don't think we ever heard the heavy version of Complete...? Is that the first mp3 you sent months ago? If not, fire that bad boy over here! :D

LooneyTunez -- wow, man! thanks for taking that kind of time and effort to help us out. very cool! i know nothing about mics -- can you give me some suggestions on a better/warmer mic for a very slim budget (ideally in the $300-$500 range -- the lower the better)?

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I'm excited to see what kind of a difference this can make... Any other thoughts?

J
http://www.mp3.com/30SoS
 
Two mics come to mind in the $300 price range - The MXL V77 and the Studio Projects TB-1. Both are tube mics that should provide you with a nice round vocal sound. I haven't heard either of these mics personally (although they are both on my list of mics to checkout), but Harvey Gerst really likes the V77, and Randy Yell is loving his TB-1. If you want to look at some cheaper options, try some of the lower priced MXLs (V67- $100, V93/2003 - $150) and SPs (C1 - $230, B1 - $80). I'm sure there are many others to check out within your $300 budget that will produce some better results. One mic that I think will get suggested would be the Audio Technica 4033, and while that is an excellent mic (I've used that mic a lot), I'm not sure it would suit your voice, as it tends to have a bit of a peak in the midrange area.

So, there's a few suggestions to try, but ultimately get something that you like the sound of without having to EQ it.
 
Just wanted to sujest quickly about drum machine. you should be able to go into your kit setup and turn down everithing but snare and kick and then pan one hard left and the other hard right then run throu the song and record you will have a trak of snare and track of kick drum. I don't have dr-660 but I do have dr-5 and I can easily do the above scenario.

Great stuff charger and LooneyTunez

oh ye defenetly get gear first man
I don't know what I was thinking with that idea. :D
 
You've got to have some separation when you record your drum machine. at a minimum, kick and snare (maybe toms too) should be on one track and cymbals should be on another stereo track. This is part of the reason that some drum machines have multiple outputs, so you can process things separately. I don't know if you program your beats as MIDI and send it to the drum machine, or if you program the beats in the drum machine then record it out as a song... But if you program them as MIDI, it should be easy to go back and record out each track separately, even if you only have two outputs. Remember that your kick and snare track can be mono too, so you only need to use one out if your drum machine is stereo...

Anyway, it can't hurt to try compressing that track, and see what happens.

I have the same monitors, but our mixes sound so different! It's just one of those weird things. I'll e-mail you a copy.
 
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