How do I get some really big guitar sounds like Creed/Alter Bridge/Breaking Benjamin

danielheeger

New member
Yeah, so, I know that is a kind of broad question, since I'm sure a lot of that final sound is done with "production magic". I mean, I've got some great microphones now, a pretty decent interface and 2 really good DAW programs. I just am trying to figure out what I need to record into the mic, maybe a bit on what kind of FX I should run as far as eq, compression and things like that. I know it'll take more than one guitar track. So, I hope I've given enough info for some help help. I appreciate it.
 
A big part of those huge sounding guitar tracks is micing a real tube amp (not using an amp sim) and at least double tracking, sometimes quad tracking the guitars and panning them hard left and right.
 
Yeah for starters those big budget bands use big budget equipment. Great amps and cabs, properly set up guitars, and they can play pretty well too. Then they mic em with good mics in a good room. Start there.
 
I've got some great microphones now, a pretty decent interface and 2 really good DAW programs. I just am trying to figure out what I need to record into the mic, maybe a bit on what kind of FX I should run as far as eq, compression and things like that.
The fact that you mention all that but don't say anything about your actual guitar/amp set up leads me to believe you might be putting the cart before the horse.
 
Well, I'm playing through a PRS Custom 24 Ten Top, into a Mesa/Boogie Roadster and a Recto cab. I have all the right gear. My biggest problem is trying to figure out what kind of settings to have the amp at, where to put the mic and how to EQ it afterwards. I mean, I've got some okay sounds, but nothing that has really blown my socks off.
 
Ahh, okay. So you definitely have the right stuff to get the job done. Could you maybe post a sample you're recorded that you're unhappy with so we could give you some pointers?
 
Well, I'm playing through a PRS Custom 24 Ten Top, into a Mesa/Boogie Roadster and a Recto cab. I have all the right gear. My biggest problem is trying to figure out what kind of settings to have the amp at, where to put the mic and how to EQ it afterwards. I mean, I've got some okay sounds, but nothing that has really blown my socks off.

That's pretty much the same style stuff they use. You got good enough guitar equipment. Now your problem is that you're looking for one cookie-cutter solution to your problem. There isn't one. What setting should you have the amp at? One that sounds good. Where to put the mic? Where it sounds best. That's for you to decide for yourself. How to EQ it afterwards? You EQ according to what the mix needs. There is no magic "electric guitar EQ". Keep in mind that EQ and mic placement will go hand in hand. I'm of the opinion that if you need to EQ much, your tone or mic placement is wrong for the song. also keep in mind that what you hear out in the room isn't the same as what a mic will hear pressed up against the grill cloth. And keep in mind that many modern guitar tracks are recorded with multiple mics through high quality pre-amps. The Royer R121 is a common pro guitar cab mic in conjunction with typical stuff like SM57s. That R121 is a thousand dollar mic. You got a few of those laying around? You certainly don't need one, but if you're trying to totally compare to modern pro recordings, that's the kind of stuff you're up against.
 
For guitar amp microphones, the band (alterbridge) used “lots” of Shure SM57s, an AKG 414, an Audix D6, a BLUE Dragonfly, a pair of Royer 122s and two Cole 4038s, one of which almost lasted the whole project.

I don't know what the fucking fuck that means. I don't know to many recording guys who would chose to use all of those mics at the same time on a record for one source. My guess is that was what was in the room armed up, but some got dumped after the fact.

I looked up BB, but was only able to find the list of amps and preamps used (but it was from the guy that recorded it). None of your gear is the same so it's not even worth mentioning.

I found a pic of linkin parks recordings:

linkinpark1LG.jpg
 
How do I get some really big guitar sounds like Creed/Alter Bridge/Breaking Benjamin
I don't really listen to modern music and I have no idea about those bands. But I've been recently experimenting with layering the electric guitar or electric mandolin and I can tell you this ~ there is a universe of difference between a guitar recorded once and it recorded 8 times. The 8 layer is thicker, bigger. It's not necessarilly better, but it is different. It's a pain in the patootie and by the 5th one, you might be asking yourself why the heck you are doing this. On the other hand, you learn about tight playing ! And you can do all kinds of things, using different amps, settings, pedals, DI, clean, fuzy, distorted, flanged, chorused, phased, whatever. Then just crunch it all together in whatever way you desire.
These are just ideas to whet your appetite. The way to go is by experimenting. Go for your own sound.
 
I don't really listen to modern music and I have no idea about those bands. But I've been recently experimenting with layering the electric guitar or electric mandolin and I can tell you this ~ there is a universe of difference between a guitar recorded once and it recorded 8 times. The 8 layer is thicker, bigger. It's not necessarilly better, but it is different. It's a pain in the patootie and by the 5th one, you might be asking yourself why the heck you are doing this. On the other hand, you learn about tight playing ! And you can do all kinds of things, using different amps, settings, pedals, DI, clean, fuzy, distorted, flanged, chorused, phased, whatever. Then just crunch it all together in whatever way you desire.
These are just ideas to whet your appetite. The way to go is by experimenting. Go for your own sound.

Yeah, "Nevermind the Bollocks" was done with like 7 or 8 guitar tracks all layered and blended. Sounds awesome. Not anything like modern rock though. It has tension and energy.
 
Yeah, "Nevermind the Bollocks" was done with like 7 or 8 guitar tracks all layered and blended. Sounds awesome. Not anything like modern rock though. It has tension and energy.
Yeah, Steve Jones really got some wonderful sounds on that album. He played alot of, if not most of the bass on it too because Glen Matlock {contrary to legend} didn't return as a session man and Sid Vicious wasn't up to the job.
Energy is the watchword for the guitars on the album, real gritty energy. I never thought his live sound was anywhere near as compelling.
 
Yeah, Steve Jones really got some wonderful sounds on that album. He played alot of, if not most of the bass on it too because Glen Matlock {contrary to legend} didn't return as a session man and Sid Vicious wasn't up to the job.
Energy is the watchword for the guitars on the album, real gritty energy. I never thought his live sound was anywhere near as compelling.

No, not even close. Not back then anyway. Although on their modern reunion tours he has a good sound. He played all of the bass on that album. Sid was laid up with hepatitis and couldn't play worth a fuck anyway. Getting rid of Glen Matlock was the dumbest thing they ever did. He was a good bassist and the only real musical force in that band in their early days. The rest were just fuckups. Steve Jones and Paul Cook eventually really turned into something good though.
 
"Nevermind the Bollocks" was done with like 7 or 8 guitar tracks all layered and blended. Sounds awesome. Not anything like modern rock though. It has tension and energy." AND great songs.
 
Although on their modern reunion tours he has a good sound.
On Sky arts 1 they often show this gig from the filthy lucre tour and his sound is pretty full. But it doesn't compare with his old studio sound which was always a step ahead of most British punk guitarists, sonically, to me. His sound was like being kicked and clubbed simultaneously in the face. The others' were like having your balls tweaked hard !
Sid was laid up with hepatitis and couldn't play worth a fuck anyway.
Of all the worship meted out to musicians, actors, producers, directors, politicians, historical figures and the like, the one I intensely detest with every fibre of my being is Sid Vicious worship. I've seen lengthy documentaries, books etc and there's even a movie out but I'm always left asking "why ?". People nowadays complain about this modern X factor/Big brother/Top model type phenomena where people become famous for doing nothing. Well, that started a long time ago with the likes of Sid Vicious. He couldn't sing, he could barely play bass, his writing was as good as burnt straw.......I don't have the right to call another human being a waste of space but from a purely musical and even social point of view, he was as close as one can get ! I suppose however, he was iconic in terms of his image. I'll give him credit for that. He was definitely one of the enduring images of 1977.
But don't be giving me no Sid records for Christmas !!
Getting rid of Glen Matlock was the dumbest thing they ever did. He was a good bassist and the only real musical force in that band in their early days.
Absolutely. When the "Classic albums" series covered "Bollocks", Steve Jones admits that it was the biggest mistake they made and John Lydon also admits that that was a big error. It seems that Malcolm McLaren was playing band members off against each other {although after the implausability of "The great rock'n'roll swindle", I don't believe anything Malcolm McLaren says or rather, said}. Not only was Matlock a good bassist, he was a really good writer. John Lydon says he wanted the Pistols' music to be unlistenable, which I long felt was pretty pointless. They used to constantly get at Matlock because of his 'Beatle~y' melodies and musicality but he gave their music a shape and form that has made it endure to this day. Even John Lydon admits that he and Matlock, when they were getting on could really write good stuff together. Matlock basically came up with most of the music but it needed Jones to brutalize it as only he could and Paul Cook to drive it and pound it relentlessly.
The Sex Pistols were actually really musical ! And despite their complaints about bloated, over technical rock dinosaurs, in the studio, they played the game same as Yes or Genesis !!
 
On Sky arts 1 they often show this gig from the filthy lucre tour and his sound is pretty full. But it doesn't compare with his old studio sound which was always a step ahead of most British punk guitarists, sonically, to me. His sound was like being kicked and clubbed simultaneously in the face. The others' were like having your balls tweaked hard !Of all the worship meted out to musicians, actors, producers, directors, politicians, historical figures and the like, the one I intensely detest with every fibre of my being is Sid Vicious worship. I've seen lengthy documentaries, books etc and there's even a movie out but I'm always left asking "why ?". People nowadays complain about this modern X factor/Big brother/Top model type phenomena where people become famous for doing nothing. Well, that started a long time ago with the likes of Sid Vicious. He couldn't sing, he could barely play bass, his writing was as good as burnt straw.......I don't have the right to call another human being a waste of space but from a purely musical and even social point of view, he was as close as one can get ! I suppose however, he was iconic in terms of his image. I'll give him credit for that. He was definitely one of the enduring images of 1977.
But don't be giving me no Sid records for Christmas !!Absolutely. When the "Classic albums" series covered "Bollocks", Steve Jones admits that it was the biggest mistake they made and John Lydon also admits that that was a big error. It seems that Malcolm McLaren was playing band members off against each other {although after the implausability of "The great rock'n'roll swindle", I don't believe anything Malcolm McLaren says or rather, said}. Not only was Matlock a good bassist, he was a really good writer. John Lydon says he wanted the Pistols' music to be unlistenable, which I long felt was pretty pointless. They used to constantly get at Matlock because of his 'Beatle~y' melodies and musicality but he gave their music a shape and form that has made it endure to this day. Even John Lydon admits that he and Matlock, when they were getting on could really write good stuff together. Matlock basically came up with most of the music but it needed Jones to brutalize it as only he could and Paul Cook to drive it and pound it relentlessly.
The Sex Pistols were actually really musical ! And despite their complaints about bloated, over technical rock dinosaurs, in the studio, they played the game same as Yes or Genesis !!

Totally agree with all of that. Especially the Sid stuff. What a joke. I have to assume that the remaining players of that first wave of brit punk must still be shaking their head at the fact that fucking Sid Vicious is the lasting image of their scene. He was a clown. He was all look and nothing else. And to hear the remaining Pistols tell it, he was actually really gung-ho and focused about learning the bass and the songs and being a productive band member until around March or April 77 - when he met Nancy. She was the Yoko Ono of the Sex Pistols. That dame was so horrendous that even Johnny Thunders The Heartbreakers - notorious womanizers and rampant junkies themselves - wanted nothing to do with her. They were the ones that introduced her to Sid. They pawned her off on him to get rid of her. Poor dumb Sid never had a chance.
 
I'm a bit old-school as a guitarist and sound tech, and to me the real money sound is not immediately in front of the speaker cone, but two or three feet back from the speaker and with a large condensor..got some great fat sounds that way. Mind you, if the guitarist is playing like crap and the gear sounds like crap, then just shove a 57 in front of the amp and get the job done quickly and move on.
 
Sid was and remains an icon - of fashion, decay & the myth of punk.
If he hadn't managed to get My Way recorded & filmed I doubt he'd have the same allure though as it made the most of his falling apart. Then the Sid N Nancy with Gary Oldman reinforced things - it tried to show how awful things were but only succeeded in sleazing it up some more.
Matlock: well listen to the tracks with Jones playing bass against those with Matlock. The former stick to the root note of the chord more or less and pulverise where as matlocks are a little more flexible. Both work really well for the songs.
I think the world was surprise at how well they all played & sounded an the Filthy Lucre tour!
Bollocks was one of the 1st CDs I owned. I'd had the cassette since the album 1st came out - the LP recorded with all the singles/B sides at the end - what a tour de force that was in the middle class university town I lived in at the time. Armidale folk - uni & college students included - didn't have any time for punk & I only met one person in the whole place who could deal with Elvis Costello's post punk/new waveness. Playing New Rose & Pretty vacant as loud as the casette player would go certainly upset the America/Steely Dan/Fleetwood mac/Deep Purple folk. I loved it, mind you my flares, long hair & beard didn't relly fit the music.
 
I loved it, mind you my flares, long hair & beard didn't relly fit the music.

That's funny. I was kind of the same, still am. No flares and long hair for me, but I never got into the brit style of punk fashion. I'm sure in 76 it was cool, but I always looked at "punk rockers" over here as posers. I called em postcard punks. I'm naturally more American in my musical tastes and style. I was that way before I even understood the difference between the US and UK scenes, or before I even knew what punk was. Jeans, T-shirts, and Chuck Taylors was my uniform as a kid, and still is to this day. I always looked more like a Ramone than The Clash, and while I love a lot of UK punk, the American stuff is just way better to me. It speaks to me better. I can relate to songs about drugs, girls (not getting them), and alienation more than I can about saving queens and class warfare. I love punk music, don't love "the look".
 
Best thing to do is throw up a song of theirs and use it as a ref. track. Start with overdub, then maybe quad-track. More than likely they used different eq's for each track so no two tracks mask their sounds. Also want to check your phase. The biggest thing your going to want to look at is how it sounds in the mix. (With all instruments.)

Panning is a big part as well, you want to make sure your audio space isn't cramped.

Start with that, maybe post up your demo and see what others have to say to help get you closer to your goal.
 
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