how can I improve my vocal recordings

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Giganova

Giganova

gimmi your mic!
hi guys & girls,

I am using a Sennheiser MD441 and a Focusrite Green channel strip for vocals right now. Since I live in the middle of nowhere and can't rent/borrow mics from a store or nearby studios, I have a question:

Would a large condenser (cardoid only) improve my (female+male) vocal recordings noticably? Since I can only spend a few hundred buxxx, I consider getting an MXL V69 Mogamo, a Rode NT2 or ADK 51. Maybe a Beyer MC-834. Something in the <$500 range.

The thing is that I am producing mainly "electronica", with bits of vocals here & there only. I guess I wouldn't need a super-expensive tube mic for that. On the other had: what I record in my home/project studio is basically what will be pressed on vinyl/cd (no re-recording in a big studio).

Any thoughts?
 
Rather than being concerned about "better", how about expanding your microphone cabinet for "different"?
You could get two or three excellent vocal microphones for under
$500 total. That way you could cover a wider range of singers/songs IMHO.

Chris
 
What do you think is lacking in your current vocal recording?
 
How to improve your vocal recording....

Hmm

Well, the first thing you'll need to do is to hire a professional vocalist. Of course a real pro won't be caught dead singing any old rubbish so you should also budget for a professional song-writer (or two) and an arranger.

Needless to say any professional singer worth his/her salt wouldn't be seen dead in some guy's crappy home studio so you'll need to book time in the nearest top class recording facility to you. The same goes for your song-writer(s). Remember they worked hard to give you the perfect musical interpretation of whatever it is you were trying to express; so a home studio recording of their masterpiece would be tantamount to a slap in the face with a wet kipper.

Okay. So you've got your singer, a song (and an arrangement) and studio time booked. What's next? Hmm, welll, you could do it as an acapella number but, most people these days prefer some kind of musical accompaniment on their recordings. Since you may, or may not, be a multi talented professional session musician you'll need to hire some to provide the appropriate backing for your singer.

Of course all these highly trained (and highly paid) professionals are going to look dimly on a bumbling amateur like yourself taking a seat behind the desk. I mean, it's not exactly going to inspire confidence is it! Therefore I would suggest you leave the fader pulling and knob twiddling to a real sound engineer. Likewise, although you may think you've got a pretty good grasp on this production lark you don't really have the experience or the ears of a seasoned producer.

So. Let's recap. So far we have

  • A Song written and arranged by a professional song-writer and a professional arranger.
  • A professional singer to sing the song.
  • Professional musicians to provide accompaniment.
  • A professional producer to polish up the arrangement and ensure that what goes onto (insert name of recording format here) is pure gold.
  • A professional engineer (plus assistants) to ensure that the producer's "vision" is fully realised.

Of course all those pros (and the studio time) are going to be mighty expensive, so perhaps you should let somebody else pick up the tab.

Erm... I guess you're kind of surplus to requirements. Oh well, you can always buy the CD when it comes out :D

My tongue seems to have gotten stuck in my cheek. ;)

But, all joking aside, I'd go with Chessparov's suggestion.

Or find CDs by artists in a similar style with vocalists who sound uncannily like yours and then try to find out what their signal chain was and how close you can get within your budget.
 
thanks for your reply and your suggestions. I don't know if there's anything missing in my vocals because I never had a large condenser and hence can't compare.

I'm having a Neumann KM184 which I use primarily for acoustic guitar and saxophone, the MD-441 for vocals and a Shure 57A Beta which I hardly use at all coz it sounds tinny compared to the other mics.

The thing is: if I get a condenser like the MXL V69 or an NT-2, will I be disappointed when I compare it to the MD-441 or will the vocals sparkle much more?
 
they are going to give you a different sound, but i dont think they are going to be great improvements.

both those mics have a little bit of the larger than life sound that impresses a lot of people and can sound pretty cool. your 441 is going to sound a bit smoother and controlled. but a lot of electronica vocals have that whisper in the ear quality that a nice LDC can get you close to pretty easily (the 441 can handle it as well though)

seeing as how you currently have a pretty cool collection of mics, i would wait and get something a bit better than the mics you have listed.

maybe like a blue dragonfly or something like that.
 
hey Mark, chessparov & eeldip,

many thanks for your replies! Great suggestions!

In the "electronica" scene (think of Drum & Bass; dance-floor music) things work a bit different as far as I know compared to pop/country/jazz/etc. People hardly book any time in big studios at all.

Here's what I thought could be my approach:

I am composing and arranging most of the songs myself in my little studio, mainly on the soft/hardware synths and drum boxes. Sometimes I add saxophone solos when it fits (with my Neumann KM-184). The sound quality is pretty good coz I invested a lot of money in the signal chain and in drum machines/synthesizers ($20k so far), and I am very familiar with my setup. Its all 48kHz/24bit, arranged in Logic, with tons of plug-ins.

I will have a couple of songs finished soon, so I thought about adding vocals to some songs. I have a professional singer as a friend, and she is willing to listen to the tracks and come up with own ideas. We will then sit together and work something out which hopefully sounds good & works. I thought I could record her in my studio. Maybe I am wrong here! She already visited me and was pretty impressed by the collection of gear I have so far, but I thought I have to make sure that the vocals sit right in the songs. Also, I want to impress her as good as I can so she has confidence in what I am doing. A good mic is absolutly necessary, of course, so I thought about adding at least one large condenser to my mic collection so we can check which one works best for her voice. I'm not sure whether a $300-500 condenser will do the job, though, that's why I asked.

The next step would be to go to a nearby studio, transfer the stuff to ProTools, re-arrange, re-mix the tracks, etc. From there we would take the tracks to a professional mastering facilty and submit the "demo" to electronica labels. As far as I know, these relatively small labels don't book studio time to re-track the songs, but press it on vinyls/cds more or less "as is" (maybe they will master the original songs themselves, I dunno).

Do you think that's the right approach for the kind of music I produce?
Do you think a small collection of relatively inexpensive condensers would give me more choice than one more expensive mic?
 
interesting approach. it is pretty capital intensive... i would try to trim the expenses a little bit.

if you are good at mixing and you have good monitoring (good space, good monitors) mixing in logic should be enough. tons of electronica comes straight out of logic out of someones house.

if you are willing to spend $$$ on dumping to pro tools, i would say that the money would be better spent doing a day of vocal takes at a nice studio, with an experienced engineer.

however, i hear an awful lot of commercial electronica releases that have pretty poorly recorded vocals... which indicates to me that the audience and potential labels dont care so much about this part of the recording.

how much money are you planning on spending on this?
 
well, I haven't calculated how much money I will have to spend.

I can do the mixing, but not the mastering, of course. I tried the Ozone and TRacks plug-ins, but the results are faaaar from profesional mastering. In the future I won't even try mastering, not even for demos. Plus I am not a pro recording/mastering engineer and don't have the ears and experience.

Let's see: my studio is up & running ($0), and I get the pro singer for free for two days or so ($0). So its "just" the ProTools and/or vocal recording session (thanks for that idea) and the mastering. I figure that's somewhere well below two grants. That should be reasonable. I thought if I had better mics I might even be able to skip the recording session in an expensive studio. That would cut down the costs significanty.
 
eeldip said:
... however, i hear an awful lot of commercial electronica releases that have pretty poorly recorded vocals... which indicates to me that the audience and potential labels dont care so much about this part of the recording.
Click to expand...
Right on! I talked to a lot of "dance floor/electronica" dj's and label owners, and they said that their prime criteria was the "jumpiness" of a track. Pretty pathetic, isnt it, but I can benifit from it (i.e., no need for an Avalon pre and Neumann mic ;-)
 
Hey Giganova

Im sorry if this is a bit basic but have you experimented with the following:

1) making a composite vocal for may be 3 or 4 good takes

2) Having constructed a really good main vocal track, double track it (being careful to get Esses, H's P's etc. in the right place or don’t pronounce them at all) Even fun to do the double track using a different mic !

3) playing with the pan buttons on both your main vox and the double track (i.e. have on @ 2 O clock and one at 7 O clock)

4) experimenting with different harmonies (i.e. intervals used and stereo imaging of harmonies)

5) different reverbs to alter the depth (in terms of imaging) of the main vocal and any backing tracks ?

6) getting blind drunk beforehand !

The last one is usually a disaster but some times...well it worked for Jim Morrison !

Hope this helps some
S
 
Giga, here's what I would do;

1) Get a good shockmount for the KM184, like the Shure "donut".
2) Always use a mesh pop screen-especially with the Neumann.
3) Get a good parametric EQ, as the KM184 takes EQing well.
(if you don't already have one)

That should kick some butt! :)

Chris
 
"whisper in the ear quality"

Eeldip's comment reminded me of the Electro-Voice EV 635a omni.
They only run about $80 or so used in excellent condition.
Always worth a try for intimate sounding vocals IMHO, if you have a good quiet mic pre, as you can close mike more than most any other omni.

Chris
 
Hey chessparov --

I do have a good shock mount and pop filter, as well as an eq. So you suggest I should use the KM184 for vocals?? Even though I've heard that 'Seal' recorded a bunch of songs with the KM184 I never seriously considered that. I'll give it a shot!

Dr_simon --

I did most of what you've suggest for my saxophone recordings (except for recording drunk ;-), with mixed success. Never tried it for vocals, though. Another bunch of good ideas!
 
Giganova said:
hi guys & girls,

I am using a Sennheiser MD441 and a Focusrite Green channel strip for vocals right now. Since I live in the middle of nowhere and can't rent/borrow mics from a store or nearby studios, I have a question:

Would a large condenser (cardoid only) improve my (female+male) vocal recordings noticably? Since I can only spend a few hundred buxxx, I consider getting an MXL V69 Mogamo, a Rode NT2 or ADK 51. Maybe a Beyer MC-834. Something in the <$500 range.

The thing is that I am producing mainly "electronica", with bits of vocals here & there only. I guess I wouldn't need a super-expensive tube mic for that. On the other had: what I record in my home/project studio is basically what will be pressed on vinyl/cd (no re-recording in a big studio).

Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I find that the LD condensor does add nice clarity and better definition to vocals. Dynamics are great for loud sources like drums, guitar cabs, etc. There are reportedly LD condesors in the >$100 range that are supposed to be great sounding mics. You should comb through some threads and read about them. Try to find mic posts that talk about voices like yours and maybe you can score a great mic for $100 or less.
 
Blue Baby Bottle is killer for female vocals (and maybe for GOOD male vocals - not my voice though:( ), should be able to get one for about $500.

Studio Projects C1 is great for male vocs - $200ish. I'm pleased with the Oktva MK-319 too, kinda dark, but good full sound if there's not a lot of backgound to cut through - these are usually $100-150 any more.

Daf
 
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