How about a SINGER'S FORUM?

  • Thread starter Thread starter chessparov
  • Start date Start date
No or very little reverb works best for me as it's easier to tell
if it's on key or not, at least in the initial stages of recording.
An old trick with compression is to route the headphone mix
WITHOUT it so the singer is more responsible for their dynamics,
thereby minimizing its use.

Chris
 
i suppose i might as well chime in-i'd certainly be interested in a vocal forum-that's probably the only area i have any plausible technical merit in (i play quite a bit of guitar, but i'm so far from virtuosity in technique that it doesn't bear mentioning, though as a musician on the whole, i'm not too bad)-i have a rather broad range and a rather loud voice, mostly toward the higher registers-i don't remember precisely which notes are called what, but my rough stable range goes from around an open e on a guitar (is that ~81 or 162hz? i was thinking 81) to.. i guess ~the 15th-17th fret on the high e (don't know the hz, but i want to say it's the g-a above high g-a). falsetto kicks in around.. 7th fret of high e string (high b?), and i have a decent blend between the regular and falsettos, but i mostly sing what i write, or covers that are not terribly hard for me to hit registers in. the notes i've run into in popular music that i can't sing (i don't really listen to modern pop, so i guess i'm really talking about rock) are peter steele from type o negative on the low end (that e is soft enough as it is, i can barely feel the resonance below that, so it's not stable at all) and a couple of specific notes i remember offhand-the last high note in queen's bohemian rhapsody before the heavy guitar riffage comes in, and the high note in heart's magic man (you know, the beautiful harmony there, i can hit that sometimes, which ain't bad for a guy). i've never trained, though i'd like to, especially with a DIY@home type course, as my income is too meager at present to support real regular voice lessons-if i had the time and money, i would like to try some true operatic training to see if i could take to any of it. it'd be nice to work on control a little-i've got power and range and, generally, passion, but having a little better idea of what "real" singers know couldn't hurt. i have more or less "perfect" pitch (though i "detune" myself accidentally on occasion by thinking about albums based on d# guitars as being off of e-i can usually stabilize and remember by memory, though, and it's rare that i can't identify a remotely musical sound by ear (you know, phones ringing, etc). i've played and sang at many an open mic, and a few "real" gigs (nothing paying more than tips, though i had a university gig that a nasty flu blew for me a couple of years back). music is the thing i value most in life, and though my in-the-moment dedication sometimes varies (depending on what's going on and whether i'm coming up with new material), i'm hooked for life. the things that concern me right now are:

1. where to draw lyric inspiration from-i've been coming up with some neat riffs as of late (weird celtic/bluegrass/hardcore metal on acoustic hybrid seems to be what i'm leaning toward right now)-but i'm still not sure what to do with the vocals-i think that listening to more bluegrass and celtic will help me understand and integrate a sense of what i'm doing into what i'm doing :D

2. how to motivate myself to get out and play-i've been going through a dry spell as of late-largely because i work most nights, but also because i'm simply extremely amotivated as of late. looking for anything to dip more into the pool of motivation. i'm sure many of you have run into things like this-it's just present in my mind frequently, so i'm spilling the beans.

3. learning more about "professional" singing-terminology, technique, control, etc. anything i can do to broaden my ability is great. i'll definately be checking into DIY voice courses in the near future.

4. how do people get into doing session work? i'm just curious-i don't know if i make a very good backup singer, but i'd love to get involved anywhere i can in the music biz, especially if it doesn't involve signing away music i've written as "work for hire"

my style varies-major influences are classic (rock?) (beatles, byrds, CSNY, simon & garfunkel, zeppelin, croce, the 4 tops, the rolling stones), modern grunge rock/metal (nirvana, pearl jam, soundgarden, alice in chains (AiC's late lead singer, layne staley, is my #1 influence probably in really getting into singing regularly), tool, deftones), female-based contemporary (tori amos, sarah maclachlan, garbage (vocs-duh), the cranberries (""), belly, the cardigans), and edgebreaking metal/hardcore (godflesh, converge, slayer (to a lesser extent now), the dillenger escape plan, haste)-i sing to all kinds of things and with all kinds of harmonies-i like to whistle or sing with or harmonize with guitar solos, bass solos, jaw harp bits, cool riffs, background noise, anything-i have some imitative ability vocally, but these days, rather than singing covers like the singers sang them initially, i just end up integrating styles and ideas into my own repertoire. if i had to take a wager, i'd bet that many would place many of my vocals in the layne staley (alice in chains-see above), chris cornell (soundgarden-see above) maynard james keenan (tool) robert plant (duh) area to a large degree, though i can hit most of the notes in between to varying extents. i love singing, i love playing guitar, i love songwriting, and i love music. nothing is more important.

well, sorry about rambling-i haven't posted here for at least a year, and now that i pipe up, a great deal comes spilling out. i hope i wasn't too terse or confusing above with parentheses or shorthand above, and that my clerical errors were kept within passable tolerances. any feedback/input/greeting/etc is greatly appreciated-i bow in the presence of those of you who have managed to take the initiative in getting what they can out of music-i'm pretty slack about it at times, but i always come around. anyway, well-met, and i look forward to getting back into the forum more in the future.
 
I suspect that, based on your post, you're a tenor who can also
sing baritone. Check out the book/excercise CD called "Free Your Voice", by Roger Love. That should help a lot.
Your speaking voice, when properly produced, tends to give the
biggest hint on what voice catagory you are, not what the highest
or lowest notes you can sing. Although anyone who can sing like
Robert Plant will probably be a dramatic tenor.
Can you guess what catagory Orson Welles would have been?
You get the idea... (he had a fine singing voice BTW!)

You may also want to learn about local acapella groups where
you would have even more opportunities to sing in a small group
or solo. There's a great benefit to hearing other singers.

Chris
 
Yo Zero, you're the most eclectic guy I've seen on this board- cool. Right now I'm working on a sort of neopsychedelic CD that amounts to a Folk/Rock/Celtic/Classical/Blues/Jazz/ Bluegrass /African/Medieval fusion. I think we will escape all genre classification. Some of my influences are similar to yours. Heavy influences are CSN&Y, Jefferson Airplane, It's a Beautiful Day, Emerson, Lake, and Palmer, B.B. King, The Who, The Beatles,Queen,Heart, Buckingham-Nicks,Steeleye Span, Clannad, Jim Croce, The Eagles, and God help me, Wilson Phillips. If the original psychedelic rock was a Folk/Rock/Blues fusion, then what we are doing is replacing the folk with English/Irish/Scottish folk, and then introducing it to Coltrane!
I salute you for having such broad influences. BTW, the best thing classical voice training will teach you is diaphragmatic breathing. What it won't teach you is how to deal with a mic. The very projection that Bel Canto teaches, to be heard over an orchestra or Broadway production, can play hell with sensitive mics. For pure volume, all the Black Sabbath in the world won't touch Pavarotti!
 
chessparov-thanks for the suggestion-i will check it out. anything to be able to do more with music. yes, i think i'm probably a tenor-and my speaking voice, while it has some oomph to it, is definately not especially low-pitched. a little higher than average, i'd say.

richard-i appreciate the thumbs-up-i could use a little mic practice, to be certain. when i'm singing toward my mics while recording, and am really belting it, i often have to be a few feet from my mics to keep from flattening them (i have audix om3xb mics, which seem to have decent specs). i recorded one song sitting back about 3-4 feet from the mic with something directly in between my voice and the mics to keep from overdriving them once. it was neat watching the monitor oscillate along to the standing waves my voice was producing in that fairly small room.(i'm thinking that part of the trouble i've run into recently with songwriting is that i haven't absorbed quite enough yet of what i'm converging to produce the music i'm working on. as time goes on, i certainly do get closer, though. your work sounds rather interesting. i'd like to check it out.

i think i'm definately going to have to start hanging out in here again-just reading the posts helps remind me of why i'm here-music, and making me want to pick up that guitar or mic or whatever else i use a little bit more.

edited to add what i had forgotten to post, and to make it all seem like somewhat incoherent blather, as it should be.
 
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chessparov: do you really think your speaking voice tells you which voice category you're in? I really doubt this. i.e. the first time I heard Don Henley speak I was really surprised.

I guess my speaking voice is pretty much at the same pitch as axl rose's - quite low. so this would mean I have to say goodbye to hardrock and sing... I don't know, I don't listen to music with baritone singers .
but hey, what is axl known for - besides hot pants? the same goes for brian johnson. ok, this may be a different or even wrong technique. but categorizing voices by the pitch they have the first time you hear them speaking seems to be one of the really bad aspects of classical style singing... something like "falsetto is bad and wrong as the name says".:D
 
Six, as we know BOTH front men for AC/DC "broke" rules on
how to sing yet...

AC/DC is one of my favorite hard rock groups of all time.
I'm glad there are people out there who sing on the edge so
singers like me don't have to!
The speaking/singing corellation is based on the general tendency
for that to be true, not necessarily every case.
Particularly where in pop music the vocal is partly an effect in
comparison to classical singing.

I'm in agreement with the old school of Italian singing
that believes that using "falsetto" voice is risky to the health
of the "real" voice. That is due to the different way air passes
through the vocal chords in a falsetto voice compared to your
regular voice. Singers like Caruso, Domingo, etc. learned how to
use a technique called "falsettone" to develop their high B's and
C's (& beyond!). In pop circles it's called a "mix".

On the basis of GNR's recordings, Axl sounds like a 2nd tenor who
can also sing baritone as far as range is concerned.

"Quite low" for me means someone like Barry White or Isaac Hayes. A true bass's voice is very thick and rich.
(My high bass range isn't quite there yet-"only" 43!)

My vocal "maestro" thought I was a tenor until we figured out the
maximum comfortable range with excellent technique was a high
A or B flat. The lowest comfortable note now is a low F.
Therefore, for pop music I would sing as a baritone or 2nd tenor.
Your upper comfortable range tends to expose your technical
shortcomings, unless you're a bartione trying too hard to sound
like a bass.

Chris
 
Here are some rock groups with baritones you "may" like;

1) The Doors
2) Hootie & The Blowfish
3) The Animals
4) The Cult
5) The Rolling Stones
6) Jethro Tull
7) Pearl Jam
8) The Allman Brothers (Gregg)
9) Elvis Costello & The Attractions
10) Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers

And many 100's more...

Chris

P.S. And Ringo when the Beatles let him sing!
 
the stones? i wouldn't say the chorus of songs like "honky tonk women", "get off of my cloud" and many others sound like baritone...


btw, chris, I don't want to say anything like "you're wrong" or whatever: I'm just very interested in this topic :).

... and I still wonder which technique is beeing used by former "hair-rock" singers to get the high notes and when they change from chestvoice to mix and to plain head-voice.

I even think sometimes that axl rose (as an example) doesn't even mix - it just sounds like headvoice powered by whiskey and tabacco ;) .

furthermore I'm very courious about my own voice. lowest comfortable note maybe deepest F of a guitar.

comfortable highest note singing at low volumes: about middle C

comf. highest note at moderate volumes: about E above that C

comf. highest note mixing (at least I think it's mix... and I bet that's when my neighbours CAN hear me): about F below high C.

depending on the song it goes way up. it's really strange: I can sing "10 seconds to love" by motley crue (ok, it doesn't sound perfect) but I can't sing something like "Wanted Dead Or Alive"...

... only if I use this voice that sounds something LIKE pure headvoice - not like the bee gees or prince but by far not that powerful like the mix. I really don't know what it is :confused: .

OPEN UP THE SINGER'S FORUM... THIS THREAD IS GETTING TOOOO LONG!!! :D :D :D
 
You're never too rich, too thin, or too looong!

Trust me, under that undeniably skilled R & B dialect of Mick's,
he really has a typical lyric (high) baritone voice, although it's quite good and many times critically underated IMHO.
You may be thinking of the "Broadway" connotation of "baritone"
where it's someone like Robert Goulet belting it out.
There's a bunch of subclassifications of each voice type.
(falling asleep yet?)

Six, check out the book/CD I mentioned recently in this thread.
It'll go over in a PROPER fashion how to develop a good "mix".
You're probably also a baritone/2nd tenor like me based on
the self-description. As you sing on a regular basis and study
it will become more apparent. The majority of men are either
primarily baritones or 2nd tenors BTW. A minority are high
tenors or true basses.

Chris

P.S. I hope that this thread GETS long enough where they might
notice and START an official "Singer's Forum".
We can have fun and learn things in the meantime though.
 
Singer's forum, Singer's forum, Singer's forum!!! Are you listening, Dragon???-Richie
 
I thought the singers took over the event forum...
Bah. I guess that was a while ago.
 
YES to a singers’ forum!

I’m pretty much a DIY alto of the female persuasion, as you call it. I started writing songs & singing “protest songs” with guitar in my teens back in the 60’s. My bedroom was situated such that my mom could hear me from the kitchen window. Well, she was a very well-trained lyric soprano who opted for marriage & kids instead of going pro, though she had the chops & connections to be successful. Anyway, she hated my voice & told me that all the time—“why do you have to keep singing that song over & over? It’s driving me crazy! Your voice is so nasal!”

Needless to say, I was pretty intimidated & am still pretty insecure about my singing, even though people tell me they like it & that my stage presence has enough “character” to make it work, esp. w/my own material. Deep down, I don’t consider myself a singer (been a percussionist for 30+ years). But I’m one of those weird people who actually enjoys speaking & performing in front of people. At one local songwriter’s showcase, I was shocked at the huge positive response I got, more than a lot of other folks who sing way better. Go figure. If there’s good response, it actually gives me more energy to ride on.

In my 20’s I studied some North Indian classical vocal, which is a whole ‘nother critter as far as voice quality & technique. For one thing, vibrato is a big no-no. & since they don’t use harmony, it’s a solo art form. The most important thing is intonation, intonation, intonation in relation to the tonic—which is the singer’s choice according to their range. & they don’t use a tempered scale either, so my perception of certain intervals was trained to hear things differently than in context with Western instrumentation. & as somebody mentioned here, it’s even worse when you can hear how flat or sharp you are!

I took a semester or so of “Western” voice at a community college & was amazed at how much I learned, esp. how much singing is really just like working out in a gym. Regular practicing literally builds muscles that really can expand your range!

In the past decade or so, I have been way deep into mbira music from Zimbabwe. (The mbira is sort of like a solid body kalimba, for those not familiar with it.) The corresponding vocal style is, again, very non-Western, but very soulful. I guess my mom would say it sounds harsh, if she were still alive. Given that it’s in a tonal language (Shona), there is a distinctive “attack” on certain syllables & it’s mostly chest voice, though sometimes falsetto is not that uncommon. A big part of this style is also a kind of very gutsy yodeling using vocables rather than words. It is a wordless expression of the Southern African version of the blues, if that makes any sense. Anyway, recently I’ve gotten more into this & it has opened up my voice & confidence. Perhaps partly because the context is more of group participation (harmonies & all) rather than performer/audience?

So what I am doing now is still writing & singing songs, using the mbira as my main axe instead of guitar. The challenge with singing is that I mix both vocal styles, Western pop/folk & the African style, in different sections of the same song. Moving between the 2 voice qualities is really tricky. I’m learning how to “work” a mic, esp. for recording my tunes, to get a nice proximity effect, cause to my ear it improves my voice quality in the Western-style sections. Because I live in a little 1-rm. apt., I usually have to wait to record during the wee hours when traffic is quiet outside. But then I also have to sing quietly because of the neighbors. It is always unomfortable in that range where my chest voice breaks & I’m not sure whether to strain/reach up, go falsetto, or just drop down an octave for a phrase. I’m usually at my best singing my heart out, way out in the woods somewhere.

When I am writing, I really work on the phrasing, tempo & prosody (how the syllables fit w/the rhythm), agonizing over where to drop a word here or there for the sake of breathing, & still get the meaning across.

As for styles, I’d like to sound like Bonnie Raitt or (reverent whisper) Tracy Nelson. (Anybody here remember “Down So Low”?) Not to mention numerous gospel & soul singers. I really like Van Morrison’s delivery.

Well, I think I’ve gone on long enough, so I’ll sign off for now. Glad to talk about something besides technology…This is a great BBS!
 
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