M
Mixxit12
How Now Brown Cow
Trumpspade said:
So you're thinkin' that hip-hop is only real in it's truest, most unaltered sense, like it was back in the day? I see where you're comin' from. I can feel that.
So you're thinkin' that hip-hop is only real in it's truest, most unaltered sense, like it was back in the day? I see where you're comin' from. I can feel that.
Trumpspade
I'M BLESSED.......
Mixxit12 said:
I guess that is what I am trying to say, thanks! But of course, that is just my opinion.
gullyjewelz
New member
if you makin songs about true struggles and life's obstacles - thats hip hop!!! partyin is . . . rap music!!!! i got no beefs wit eikther side - just like 2 hear a mixture!!
its really not even a problem in hip hop that shit is too commercial - that's US!!! for the most part! - back in the day - most hip hop was not on the radio (not "real" radio) we were on AM stations like a mutha!!! but FM wont really fuckin wit hip hop - hell, there was a time when the real "dj" was the cat that had the songs no 1 else had heard -- nto the cat that had what was playin on the radio . ..
B-Side culture!! B-sides used to rule!!!!
its really not even a problem in hip hop that shit is too commercial - that's US!!! for the most part! - back in the day - most hip hop was not on the radio (not "real" radio) we were on AM stations like a mutha!!! but FM wont really fuckin wit hip hop - hell, there was a time when the real "dj" was the cat that had the songs no 1 else had heard -- nto the cat that had what was playin on the radio . ..
B-Side culture!! B-sides used to rule!!!!
3
32-20-Blues
New member
Mixxit12 said:
When did hip-hop begin? I don't know much about this stuff, but maybe you guys know Gil Scott Heron. He did "The Revolution will Not be Televised" - that seems to me (and I admit I'm pretty ignorant about hip-hop) to be an early example of the genre. Also, quite a lot of Sly & The Family Stone stuff seems to have shared some of the themse of hip-hop.
Obviously, this music is early, real early, and isn't hip-hop by today's standards. But do you guys reckon that maybe the roots of hip-hop/rap can be found in this stuff? I got a couple of albums - Soul Funk & Jazz from a Revolutionary Era, vols 1 & 2 - which is underground stuff from the late 60's and 70's; closely related to the Black Power movement, etc...
And this is where it gets maybe slightly unlikely, but if you trace it back far enough, what about blues as a form of hip-hop? I mean, like hip-hop it was a specifically African-American form of cultural expression. Some of the themes were similar, too, - Muddy Waters rapping about his sexual prowess, for example, in "Mannish Boy." Or Bo Diddley, whose 1950's "Say Man" has been recently compared to rap.
("Say Man" is just these two guys improvising insults over a heavy guitar and drum beat - check out some of the lyrics; you'll know more about this than me, but does it resemble rap even slightly to you?
Jerome: Hey, since you told me about my girl I’m gonna tell you
about yours. I was walking down the street with your girl.
Bo: Yeah?
Jerome: I took her home; for a drink, you know.
Bo: To the home?
Jerome: Yeah, just for a drink.
Bo: Oh.
Jerome: But that chick looked so ugly she had to sneak up on a
glass to get her a drink of water.)
Anyway, any thoughts appreciated.
Change of POETS
New member
32-20-Blues said:
Honestly, I think a lot of curent underground Hip-Hop is heavily rooted in the blues and jazz culture. This guy records at my studio: www.myspace.com/othello
He's an example of that part of underground Hip-Hop.
However, the originators of Hip-Hop (Kool Herc anyone?) simply had a DJ looping a 2 or 4 bar groove from soul records in the 60's and 70's. Emceeing over those grooves didn't take place until the mid 70's, when the emcee's purpose was to keep the party going, and entertain the party goers.
So it's hard to pinpoint the origin precisely. I hear influences of Blues, Jazz, Rock, Folk, and even classical music in a lot of Hip-Hop. Of course, 90% of that stuff will never reach the airwaves, but that's the industries fault.
Trumpspade
I'M BLESSED.......
Change of POETS said:
Good Point!
3
32-20-Blues
New member
Good points about the incorporation of folk/jazz/blues into rap.
Are you familiar with the poet Amiri Baraka? He's nearly 70, but he sees rap/hip-hop as the continuation of the Black Arts Movement (aka the Harlem Renaissance of the 20's and 30's). Anyway, some of his theories are interesting, particularly about the state of current hip-hop:
Baraka, who often appears with younger hip-hop poets in performance slams, is more optimistic about the current state of poetry. "Poetry is alive and well," he says. "Afro-American and Latino poetry is at a point of artistic excellence and political insurgency. There are hundreds of young black and Latino poets, some whites as well, creating verses of revolution and resistance. There is no genre of art in the U.S. as consciously anti-imperialist, antiracist, radical and revolutionary as the work of these poets," he continues. "As uneven as the TV show Russell Simmons Presents Def Poetry is, it still presents an often exciting flash of new and young, and some not-so-young poets who are now or will be very important and influential voices."
While others of his generation criticize rap as an art form, he judges the music by the same criteria as the Black Arts Movement. "Rap remains important," says Baraka. "It began as inspiring and innovative, as a grassroots form with a radical and passionate content. I was impressed very early because I knew it was the poetic genre predicted by the Black Arts: one, black; two, mass-oriented; and three, revolutionary," he says, in describing the criteria.
This is the interesting part:
"But this new music has been sabotaged, covered by fusion and racist claims of co-origination and ultimate mastery by others, like R&B was co-opted by rock and roll," he says. "Rap is co-opted by Eminem and the corporations take hold and use the carrot of money and fame to change the art."
Are you familiar with the poet Amiri Baraka? He's nearly 70, but he sees rap/hip-hop as the continuation of the Black Arts Movement (aka the Harlem Renaissance of the 20's and 30's). Anyway, some of his theories are interesting, particularly about the state of current hip-hop:
Baraka, who often appears with younger hip-hop poets in performance slams, is more optimistic about the current state of poetry. "Poetry is alive and well," he says. "Afro-American and Latino poetry is at a point of artistic excellence and political insurgency. There are hundreds of young black and Latino poets, some whites as well, creating verses of revolution and resistance. There is no genre of art in the U.S. as consciously anti-imperialist, antiracist, radical and revolutionary as the work of these poets," he continues. "As uneven as the TV show Russell Simmons Presents Def Poetry is, it still presents an often exciting flash of new and young, and some not-so-young poets who are now or will be very important and influential voices."
While others of his generation criticize rap as an art form, he judges the music by the same criteria as the Black Arts Movement. "Rap remains important," says Baraka. "It began as inspiring and innovative, as a grassroots form with a radical and passionate content. I was impressed very early because I knew it was the poetic genre predicted by the Black Arts: one, black; two, mass-oriented; and three, revolutionary," he says, in describing the criteria.
This is the interesting part:
"But this new music has been sabotaged, covered by fusion and racist claims of co-origination and ultimate mastery by others, like R&B was co-opted by rock and roll," he says. "Rap is co-opted by Eminem and the corporations take hold and use the carrot of money and fame to change the art."
Change of POETS
New member
Yes, I'm familiar with Baraka. However, I don't agree so much that Eminem and the like are responsible for changin the art. Eminem had his own style, widely respected as a lyricist in the underground before he blew up in the mainstream. His first two albums were literally a slap in the face of the mainstream rap industry.
He changed his style up when he got involved with 50 Cent, and tried to be something he isn't, which is a Gangster Rapper. He's adapted to the format of the industry, after he'd gained success by bucking the system. Doesn't make much sense to me, logically speaking. Why chage who you are after you obtained success just being you? Frankly put... Peer pressure. He wanted to fit in so much with 50, he decided to incorporate 50's style into his own. Dumb move.... The Eminem Show was borderline, but still a great album... Encore was just horrible.
I think there are a few people in the industry right now who are stil doing it for the love. Unfortunately, too many of the newer artists simply do it for the money. Formula based albums lead to formula based radio singles, and horribly repetative albums. Most people can't differentiate between D4L and Young Joc, as they make the same BS.
Corporate America changed the art, and degraded it.
He changed his style up when he got involved with 50 Cent, and tried to be something he isn't, which is a Gangster Rapper. He's adapted to the format of the industry, after he'd gained success by bucking the system. Doesn't make much sense to me, logically speaking. Why chage who you are after you obtained success just being you? Frankly put... Peer pressure. He wanted to fit in so much with 50, he decided to incorporate 50's style into his own. Dumb move.... The Eminem Show was borderline, but still a great album... Encore was just horrible.
I think there are a few people in the industry right now who are stil doing it for the love. Unfortunately, too many of the newer artists simply do it for the money. Formula based albums lead to formula based radio singles, and horribly repetative albums. Most people can't differentiate between D4L and Young Joc, as they make the same BS.
Corporate America changed the art, and degraded it.
B
BillyBo
New member
HOORAY!!Change of POETS said:
not really.
3
32-20-Blues
New member
Change of POETS said:
Perhaps the nature of the genre was the problematic element when it came to the influence of the corporations. Music, by its nature, is widespread in its appeal - therefore, there is obviously money to be made from it, and executives start to dictate tastes. With regard to subversive (or counterculture) literature, there is immediately less of an audience (more people buy music than poetry), and so writers like Langston Hughes, Zora Neale Hurston and Baraka etc can remain true to their artistic intentions for longer, without having to worry about sales.
Which is unfortunate, because, as Baraka implies, rap could easily have become the logical extension of black literature. Specifically, there is an element in Hughes' poetry that relies upon performance, and rap could have offered a forum for an articulation of this performance/participation aspect.
Furthermore, there was a tendency in the black modernist movement to stress African-American dialect/slang as a primary method of subversion. Language offers identity, and instead of accepting the white naming of black culture ('negro' 'colored' etc), modernist black authors decided to 'name' themselves by using slang or the oral/folk tradition in their work. (Hence this question levelled at Janie, who calls herself by the name given to her by her white friends, in Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God: "Don't yo' know yo' ownself?")
Which brings me back to rap... Essentially, the fact that it has formed a dialect/vocabulary of its own, outside of standard English, emphasises its independence. After all, it makes sense that dialect would be more important as a political tool when it can be heard, instead of just read. Now, however, most of the rap that is heard over here is cliché ridden rhyming about guns/women, instead of being a true declaration of artistic or cultural independence. Maybe there is less of a need nowadays to consciously and deliberately break away from homogenous, white cultural forms?
Change of POETS
New member
32-20-Blues said:
I don't know that there's less of a need, necessarily. It's just less emphasized by the people with influence within Hip-Hop culture. The mainstream culture promotes money and fame, solely. There's no declaration for purpose or inspiration. Artists with such proclamation end up on the proverbial "back seat" of the industry bus. Told to sit down, and move if someone else with more opportunity needs a seat.
I can imagine you don't get much of the American underground scene in your area, which is unfortunate. There are a lot of great artists putting out great music, with meaning and inspirational lyrics. The mainstream has turned into a gimmick-ridden wasteland, and record sales are reflecting that.
D-Gravity
Officially~> Yo-DHA
Change of POETS said:
Change, I donno if I can ask this but, as a learner I need to clarify this. Wher actually is the underground scene takin place in America? Like u said he was unfortunate fo not havin much underground acts in his area..so wher xactly can it be? just curious..and who knows someday I might be ther somewer in the undergrounds to see and learn true hip hop. I do believe that underground/alternate hip hop s got great potential than mainstream.
Change of POETS
New member
Well he's in Ireland, I believe. So I'm assuming they don't get much in the way of American Hip-Hop, that's not on a major label.
Underground Hip-Hop is everywhere. From Hip-Hop shops to corner cyphers. There's no "one place" to look for it. It's just there, and you have to have your eyes and ears open for it.
Underground Hip-Hop is everywhere. From Hip-Hop shops to corner cyphers. There's no "one place" to look for it. It's just there, and you have to have your eyes and ears open for it.
M
Mindset
Well-known member
I have a friend in Ireland (Rap Ireland Magazine). You'll be surprised, most of the hip hop/rap culture in Ireland (don't know about other countries but I figure too), stems from our own American hip hop scene. We got fam around the world 
Great discussion btw.
Great discussion btw.
M
Mindset
Well-known member
Wait I think I misinterpret this post wrong
lol
3
32-20-Blues
New member
Change of POETS said:
Yeah, you're right, the stuff we get is pure mainstream. There is a very small hip-hop culture in ireland, but I'm not sure how valid it is. Then again, there are some social parallels between African-American culture and Irish culture, so maybe it's all good. Anyway, we just got our first hiphop magazine last year (RapIreland), so maybe there is something worthwhile happening, I'm not sure. I'll have to look into it further.
Edit: Hey Mindset, just saw your post - Rap Ireland magazine, that's the one - it's cool that you know some guys working on it. There was a guy who used to busk (not sure if you have a different word for that - just performing in the street, basically) in Dublin, with another guy doing beatbox. His name was Tom - just Tom, nothing else, and he was amazing, really tight, with some good rhymes. The best thing about it was that his stuff was about Irish concerns, not just stuff he had seen on MTV. I don't know how you feel about this, but an Irish guy who has never been outside the country rapping about the East coast / West coast divide in the States doesn't make much sense to me. Anyway, it's cool that you know about things happening over here.
Trumpspade
I'M BLESSED.......
32-20-Blues said:
I erased the first portion of your statement because it does nothing for the topic. IMO
The above part, that I chose to paste, is for a reason.
Rap did not form it's own dialect/vocabulary, it adopted the many versions of conversation that was already in urban communities. It didn't emphasize Independence, it offered acceptance and identification. I do agree that it is a powerful political, as well as, economical tool. There are many sub-categories of Rap, which I mentioned in an earlier post. However, if all your community is playing, relative to rap songs, are cliche ridden rhyming about Guns/Women, therein lies the problem...Your Community!!! Rap is more diverse and global than ever, so it should be heard in it's entirety before any judgement should be passed. Meaning both in the stereotypical sense of the word and the history in which it is contained. I say that beacause many cultures, meaning those outside of rap, are ignorant to what Rap entails. Therefore the true history and what it is worth, should not be over shadowed by the repeated attempts of the adversary to shut it down. They should stop using Negative depictions of our character, in attempts of warranting Negative responses, which in turn gives us Negative a Label. Rap is all good! It's the Ignorant and Politically correct #$@#@'s that have us misunderstood! (And Mr understood)
I know I just jaw jacked, but I'm tired of it!
And it's not a stirke against you 32-20 it's a problem that started waaay above you!
M
Mindset
Well-known member
32-20-Blues said:
Looks like Rap Ireland is taking off. The magazine has so far featured us, eminem, and many other mainstream artists, but also talks about the underground rap scene of the world & mainly here. The magazine has actually been in circulation for 2-2 1/2 years (it was originally a different name). Strangely enough, founded by a dude I know who's family business consist of butchers, successful ones at that. He was originally going to become a butcher, and he started getting into the rap/hip hop scene (terrible artist I'll tell you that! lol but great writer). Man I'm proud of him.
TelePaul
J to the R O C
We gets bits and pieces. I got a buddy that worships Jigga and Kanye is big news over here too.
Change of POETS
New member
Be a homie, and hook up an interview for ya boy...Mindset said: