Teacher
New member
chessrock said:
i bet the u67 would sound better thru my RNP though
i bet the u67 would sound better thru my RNP though
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Rev E
New member
EveningSky said:
The short answer... you get a relatively safe place to hide $1000, because many high end pres hold their value pretty well (particularly the bigger names). What you're getting is not necessarily better. But it will be a different flavor. Why don't you go to a shop for yourself and see if the difference is worth it to you?
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chessrock
Banned
Teacher said:i bet the u67 would sound better thru my RNP though
Touche
c7sus
Disenfranchised Member
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Originally posted by EveningSky
Thank you for your information. Can someone try to explain to me what I get in a good preamp if I pay $1200 versus $2200? Is that a good investment of $ or something best left for sound professionals?
Can you tell me what you get in a $1200 guitar instead of $2200? Opinions will differ. The question is- what is the right tool to do the job *you* want to do? As in car racing, 80% of the money is paid for the last 10% of performance, and half of that is a function of brand prestige. However, that 80% is often the difference between the checkered flag and second place. And the better driver may win anyway. The question asked is one that every person has to answer for themselves. I think a kickass project studio is always an unholy combination of cheap gear that works, and a few pieces of real top shelf equipment.-Richie
Thank you for your information. Can someone try to explain to me what I get in a good preamp if I pay $1200 versus $2200? Is that a good investment of $ or something best left for sound professionals?
Can you tell me what you get in a $1200 guitar instead of $2200? Opinions will differ. The question is- what is the right tool to do the job *you* want to do? As in car racing, 80% of the money is paid for the last 10% of performance, and half of that is a function of brand prestige. However, that 80% is often the difference between the checkered flag and second place. And the better driver may win anyway. The question asked is one that every person has to answer for themselves. I think a kickass project studio is always an unholy combination of cheap gear that works, and a few pieces of real top shelf equipment.-Richie
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David Artis
Active member
88fingers said:
Second the opinion on the Sytek products. Had 8 channels of their mic pres in my last studio configuration. Absolutely clean - no color added pre.
Definitely a must to check out.
For color I use the Neve pre amps.
tubedude
New member
Dont forget the tried and true, purely fantastic totally excellent API stuff either (or its similar OSA stuff, cheaper). One of the best colors on the market for like a million years. And modular. Buy yourself a power supply and one preamp, sit on it for a while, and add preamps as you get a chance.
If not, grab a Great River NV, cant go wrong there.
If not, grab a Great River NV, cant go wrong there.
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EveningSky
New member
Thank you to all for your comments.
I understand that the best way for me to understand is to use this equipment in a Studio. Better yet to own it so that over time I can use it under different conditions. I will try to rent some studio time to listen to this different equipment. Otherwise, it is very difficult to have access where I live.
I am asking the group what there experience is. I read the post about the importance of the preamp by an contributor on this BB (I think). It does make some sense to me. The mic signal is among the weakest of any signal recorded in a studio. In my limited experience, I find many mics at many price points have some merrit and many sound good to my ears.
It makes sense to me that the equipment which takes that very feable electronic signal from the mic and bosts it to a level that conventional audio equipment can deal with is absolutely critical in the chain. Furthermore, it seems to me that the role of this piece of equipment is very well defined. Take a weak electronic signal with all of its detail and amplify it with all of its detail.
So what does the group think.
Is it a question of electronic specs (%degree of amplification, lack of distortion, all measurable and quantifiable!), or are there aditional factors involved.
Your analogy to a guitar Mr. Monroe may not pertain to this, as the value of a guitar is dependant on so many factors, including sound, appearence, playability, which is very different and subjective. A preamp is a box with a meter, dials, inputs and outputs.
Can someone help me understand what I get with an expensive preamp, or how does the expert readership of this BB value high end versus middle end versus low end preamps.
Many of the participants on this BB may sometimes forget something. The expert readership here works with this type of equipment and has experience with this equipment that an amature hobbyist such as I will probably never have, and I (as well as other readers) greatly value reading of your experience and opinions.
Thank you again,
Yours, EveningSky
I understand that the best way for me to understand is to use this equipment in a Studio. Better yet to own it so that over time I can use it under different conditions. I will try to rent some studio time to listen to this different equipment. Otherwise, it is very difficult to have access where I live.
I am asking the group what there experience is. I read the post about the importance of the preamp by an contributor on this BB (I think). It does make some sense to me. The mic signal is among the weakest of any signal recorded in a studio. In my limited experience, I find many mics at many price points have some merrit and many sound good to my ears.
It makes sense to me that the equipment which takes that very feable electronic signal from the mic and bosts it to a level that conventional audio equipment can deal with is absolutely critical in the chain. Furthermore, it seems to me that the role of this piece of equipment is very well defined. Take a weak electronic signal with all of its detail and amplify it with all of its detail.
So what does the group think.
Is it a question of electronic specs (%degree of amplification, lack of distortion, all measurable and quantifiable!), or are there aditional factors involved.
Your analogy to a guitar Mr. Monroe may not pertain to this, as the value of a guitar is dependant on so many factors, including sound, appearence, playability, which is very different and subjective. A preamp is a box with a meter, dials, inputs and outputs.
Can someone help me understand what I get with an expensive preamp, or how does the expert readership of this BB value high end versus middle end versus low end preamps.
Many of the participants on this BB may sometimes forget something. The expert readership here works with this type of equipment and has experience with this equipment that an amature hobbyist such as I will probably never have, and I (as well as other readers) greatly value reading of your experience and opinions.
Thank you again,
Yours, EveningSky
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Yo Eveningsky. I think the analogy holds fairly true, as many other factors than simple amplification figure into the desirability of a preamp. While appearance may not be a masjor factor, the usability and ergonomics of a preamp may be very important to the end user. For instance, does it need to be rack mountable? Does it have vu meters or LED indicators? Digital out or analog only? Does it have channel inserts so FX/compression can be added before the main gain stage? Does it have separate input and output gain control, or trim? Is the gain control in steps, and how big are those steps? Does it have variable impedence? Do you need high-Z DI circuitry? Does it offer compression or EQ? Does it have bass cut filters, and is that preset, or variable? How much gain can it provide, and at what signal to noise ratio? How agressive are the pads?
For instance, if you want to use your preamp with an unbalanced unit such as an RNC compressor, it is very handy to have channel inserts. If you are hearing impaired, as I am, accurate vu meters and a lot of headroom are a big plus. Like guitars, preamps have a wide variety of features that users simply prefer, or not.
Finally, No, it's not just a box with meters that adds gain to a signal without changing it. It is the heart and soul of your signal chain, and the sound that comes out of it *is different* than the sound that goes into it, and that is what you pay for in a high-end preamp. Nobody put a tube or a transformer into a pre to make it reproduce a signal with no alteration. A mic preamp is *not* a reference amp made for driving monitors. It is made to change the sound of the input on purpose, hopefully for the better.
Some preamps are cleaner than others, and my recommendation for a first major league preamp would tend toward the clean side. But, highly valued preamps like Neve, Great River, Pendulum, etc. are chosen because of the way they change sound, not because of the way they *don't* change it. One of the best analogies I ever read, and I don't know who's idea it is, is that the microphone is like the artist's brush, and the preamp is the paint.
The contrast between cleaner and more colored preamps exists at all levels in the price point spectrum, and a high end preamp is not necessarily cleaner than an inexpensive one.
CHEAP- clean-DMP3 colored-VTB-1
MID-PRICED- clean- Grace 101/RNP colored- Joemeek VC1Q
HIGH END- clean-Avalon AD2022 colored- Neve/Great River
These are just a few examples, and different ears will have very different opinions about how clean or colored a given preamp is, and that may vary depending on the mics and settings used. But- even the cleanest mic preamps have plenty of color, or they would suck. The point of a mic pre is not just to raise signal strength, but to define how that signal will sound. That's why you have to find the pre(s) that will define *your* sound.-Richie
For instance, if you want to use your preamp with an unbalanced unit such as an RNC compressor, it is very handy to have channel inserts. If you are hearing impaired, as I am, accurate vu meters and a lot of headroom are a big plus. Like guitars, preamps have a wide variety of features that users simply prefer, or not.
Finally, No, it's not just a box with meters that adds gain to a signal without changing it. It is the heart and soul of your signal chain, and the sound that comes out of it *is different* than the sound that goes into it, and that is what you pay for in a high-end preamp. Nobody put a tube or a transformer into a pre to make it reproduce a signal with no alteration. A mic preamp is *not* a reference amp made for driving monitors. It is made to change the sound of the input on purpose, hopefully for the better.
Some preamps are cleaner than others, and my recommendation for a first major league preamp would tend toward the clean side. But, highly valued preamps like Neve, Great River, Pendulum, etc. are chosen because of the way they change sound, not because of the way they *don't* change it. One of the best analogies I ever read, and I don't know who's idea it is, is that the microphone is like the artist's brush, and the preamp is the paint.
The contrast between cleaner and more colored preamps exists at all levels in the price point spectrum, and a high end preamp is not necessarily cleaner than an inexpensive one.
CHEAP- clean-DMP3 colored-VTB-1
MID-PRICED- clean- Grace 101/RNP colored- Joemeek VC1Q
HIGH END- clean-Avalon AD2022 colored- Neve/Great River
These are just a few examples, and different ears will have very different opinions about how clean or colored a given preamp is, and that may vary depending on the mics and settings used. But- even the cleanest mic preamps have plenty of color, or they would suck. The point of a mic pre is not just to raise signal strength, but to define how that signal will sound. That's why you have to find the pre(s) that will define *your* sound.-Richie
Phosphene
Horse Diaper
Richie,
I always enjoy reading your posts.
Jeremiah
I always enjoy reading your posts.
Jeremiah
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pdaniels
New member
If I may expand on that, the same principal holds true for mics. Most mics are chosen because of how they alter the sound with the capsule used and sometimes with internal eq circuitry. The preamp then changes the sound further.
The aim should be to pick a combination of mic and preamp that together mould your sound into what you want to hear without you having to resort to equalizing it yourself. Of course, that is in theory; in reality it isn't always possible to get exactly the sound you want to start out with, which is why God made equalizers. But if you have chosen mic and preamp well, then the equalization needed should be minimal.
The aim should be to pick a combination of mic and preamp that together mould your sound into what you want to hear without you having to resort to equalizing it yourself. Of course, that is in theory; in reality it isn't always possible to get exactly the sound you want to start out with, which is why God made equalizers. But if you have chosen mic and preamp well, then the equalization needed should be minimal.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Phosphene, thanks for ypur kind words. And pdaniels, God makes an EQ? Can I pick one up at church? I was always of the opinion that EQ units were made and used at the other end of the cosmic continuum- in hell.-Richie
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EveningSky
New member
Grace 201
I finally made a decision and purchased a Grace 201, alledgably ultra-clean and high quality.
I thought over the many comments carefully and concluded the following:
I have musical instruments with color, I have an acoustic room/space with color, I have mikes with color and then to add a preamp with more color?
Help, I don't understand what I am coloring anymore.
I need to achieve some clarity with the color I am already working with.
I hope that I can better learn about the sound of the color in my links up to the preamp with my new "very clean" preamp. I will let you know how it works for me.
Thank you again to all, (and please no one write to me that I made a "big mistake.").
Yours, ES
I finally made a decision and purchased a Grace 201, alledgably ultra-clean and high quality.
I thought over the many comments carefully and concluded the following:
I have musical instruments with color, I have an acoustic room/space with color, I have mikes with color and then to add a preamp with more color?
Help, I don't understand what I am coloring anymore.
I need to achieve some clarity with the color I am already working with.
I hope that I can better learn about the sound of the color in my links up to the preamp with my new "very clean" preamp. I will let you know how it works for me.
Thank you again to all, (and please no one write to me that I made a "big mistake.").
Yours, ES
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Yo Eveningsky! I, for one, think you have chosen wisely. The 201 should give you plenty of trouble free clean gain. As I said above, your first preamps should tend toward the clean side. Some people love the Grace, and there are a few who don't love it, but it should be a solid step-up to your signal chain.-Richie