High School Musical Microphone Control

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Hello! New here. My girlfriend is the theatre teacher at a local high school. I have been volunteering there to help her with lights and sound for some time now. I've gotten to know my way around the equipment here which to my untrained eye seems a bit outdated (it's a high school... go fig) I've done a few musical with some degree of success, however we have run in a repeated problem. The kids in the musical, while some may be great singers, others are not. Some get really quiet one minute and really loud the next. For the past several musicals I have been sitting up in the booth and manually controlling the levels on each microphone to prevent the signals from clipping. I have a feeling that there has GOT to be a better way. I am running a Yamaha MG24/14fx board and 12 separate microphones this time around (how do you spell nightmare?) Is there a way I can control the volume through a computer? or a way to put a limiter on the mics or what? Help! Thanks!
 
I don't know of a lot that are commercially available. You can get schematics for AVC and AGC amp circuits online. (Automatic Voltage or Gain Control), but you'd need one designed for the impedance of the mics you're using, and one per mic. They can be made with more or less delay on the uptake and downsweep, for more or less immediate control of the volume. I'd bet that anything that can be designed with FETs, resistors and capacitors can be duplicated in a plug-in. Would be interesting to find out.
 
I thought that was the original intent of compression, to level out the volume. Why could you not reduce the volumes of the mic to keep from clipping, use a compressor going back out (or a an insert on the master) then play play with the compression levels to smooth it out.

FYI - I am just throwing out an idea based on my limited knowledge. I will be interested to hear what some of the pro's here will say to solve the problem.
 
Will compression cover that broad a spectrum? Live performance of a high school drama will have +/-12dB runs. That's a pretty big order for a compressor. I'm not really well versed in it, but if it kicks volume up that far, will it sound squashed? If it will work (can probably be checked easy enough...rent a compressor for an afternoon when there's a rehearsal) it would only be around $150 to put together, or possibly much less if they just keep the rental through final performance.
 
Instruct the students on proper mic technique. Those with strong voices hold the mic further away from their mouths, those with weak voices hold the mic closer. Don't you do a sound-check so that you can get the levels set correctly before starting? It seems that if each student has their own mic and the levels are set before-hand you wouldn't have these problems.
 
When I was in high school (which admittedly was 35 years ago) we had boom mics and high school kids to control the booms (which only made things worse). So I never even paid attention to the fact that he's using 12 mics. If you have 12 channels you should be able to get pretty close by following Toyz instruction. Sorry I missed that.
 
Couldn't you just route the vocals into a buss with a compressor on it? Maybe the weak singers to a separate bus with a unique comp?

Sorry, I am not so much a live mixing guy. The groups have inserts for each of the 4 channels (from the photo's I see for the mixer). You could insert a compressor there for each. I have no clue if the onboard effects can be selected for the bus.
 
Compression is only half the battle -- And the less important half.

Meh - If you're bored: Volume vs. Dynamic Range - Fader Cam - YouTube And don't forget to expand the description.

When I'm running FOH (as I do a few times yearly for musicals), this is what's happening. Thought to record it once on the phone. That's just one vocalist -- If there are 12 or 20 or 30, it's the same thing (but with 12 or 20 or 30 faders).

The person running sound is as big a part of the show as anyone on stage -- And usually knows more detail about every performer than the director.

I'm not necessarily trying to over-emphasize the sound guy -- But I'll do any two (and sometimes three) jobs on a theatrical production simultaneously before I'll get behind the board (although that's what I'm usually hired for). There have been shows where I was doing lights, sound, audio, video, prompting *and* stage manager all at once (obviously, a fairly simple production and an otherwise ill staff). But always give the sound guy credit -- If you don't really notice him, he's doing an absolutely spectacular job. Reading the script, listening for cues (assuming a ClearCom or something of course), running X-number of mics for X-number of people that may or may not be stellar performers, trying to make sure everything is actually on when it needs to be (and OFF when it needs to be), line jumps feedback, screamers, whisperers, on and on and on while the light guy is pressing the "GO" button on the Ion every once in a while (I design lights occasionally too).

LONG STORY SHORT -- Quiet in is quiet out, end of story. Compression is fine for the person that doesn't have the volume control when he/she hits that high note and can't move the mic because it's taped to their face. But nothing is going to make the whispering kid loud except for projection.

I'm not going to sugar-coat it -- Typically, I'm working with some pretty good talent. But occasionally, some --- "rookies" is a fairly generous term actually. Just reminding them that this isn't television is hard enough. Too many talk to each other (this is theatre - you don't talk to each other - you talk to the guy in the light booth while *acting like* you're talking to each other).

Here's a couple lines you can borrow --

"Hey [person on stage] - Can you hear me?"
(Yeah)
"Well I can't hear you. And one of us is wearing a microphone."

"Don't talk to each other - Talk to the guy in the light booth." (already covered that one)

"Mics spread the sound around - Quiet in is quiet out."

"Dammit!!! I QUIT!!! I can't work with this sort of incompetence!!!"

That last one is usually reserved for the director.

I have been sitting up in the booth and manually controlling the levels on each microphone to prevent the signals from clipping.
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This is what sound people do. Granted, if you're clipping, that's a gain-staging issue. But manually and individually controlling each mic is how it's done from the smallest school production to the biggest full-scale Broadway show and everything in between.
 
John has spelled it out perfectly, if they don't speak up, not a lot you can do.

More years ago than I care to.... I did recording and repro' for Gang Shows and AmDrams. This is NOT like telly or film or the West End where the kids that can't sing,project,act, shutup don't make the cut! No, in a GS everyone gets to sing and if the Weak One is the Leading Ladie's little princess, not a lot you can do!

Same for the generally simple B&Butter PA jobs, AGMs. You set the principle speaker's mikes out on top table on banquet stands. What to do if the Treasurer is nine feet tall and talks like Bob Harris?

Technology fix? Well Shure produced an auto-mixer-preamp many years ago. I don't know if a modern version exists? I suppose a software version might have been developed but it is hard to see how that would control the PREAMPS which is where the problem starts and stops?

Dave.
 
I do a lot of live musical theatre (love it!) and, over the years, much of it was for a youth theatre group that I was a trustee for (they were a charity).

Massive Master is spot on. To sound good you have to nag the kids (which sometimes means nagging the teacher) and also resign yourself to constant fader riding. This isn't just with kids--I've mixed pro shows with known stars who still needed my help with dynamic range.

I do use a compressor but only as a limiter to guard against clipping if one of the "turns" surprises me--but level control and balancing is done with lots of fingers.

The line about the lighting booth is a good one. On a more educational level, one exercise I've seen work very well with the quiet 'uns is for the director to stand at the back of the auditorium with a painted target and tell the offenders to aim their voice there. For whatever reason, this seems to help.
 
Okay, stupid question: why are you miking individual actors? Most Broadway productions do this these days, but it's because the orchestrations tend to be loud and Broadway theaters are either very large, were designed and built more than a century ago before acoustics were considered by architects, or both.

When amplification of Broadway shows first began in, roughly, the 60s, the goal was sound reinforcement, i.e. evening out the balance between the orchestra and performers, and, really, that is all that's necessary. Sound designers used (and, in many situations, still use), a series of boundary mikes (PZM mikes) placed along the stage apron. I would think that would be an excellent and easy-to-implement solution for a high-school production.

Of course, I'm old and well-remember when NO mikes were used for musical theater. I'm old-school enough to wonder why reinforcement, not to mention amplification, is needed at all. Theater has been around for thousands of years, and actors managed perfectly well without it for almost all of that time.
 
PTravel said:
Okay, stupid question: why are you miking individual actors? Most Broadway productions do this these days, but it's because the orchestrations tend to be loud and Broadway theaters are either very large, were designed and built more than a century ago before acoustics were considered by architects, or both.

When amplification of Broadway shows first began in, roughly, the 60s, the goal was sound reinforcement, i.e. evening out the balance between the orchestra and performers, and, really, that is all that's necessary. Sound designers used (and, in many situations, still use), a series of boundary mikes (PZM mikes) placed along the stage apron. I would think that would be an excellent and easy-to-implement solution for a high-school production.

Of course, I'm old and well-remember when NO mikes were used for musical theater. I'm old-school enough to wonder why reinforcement, not to mention amplification, is needed at all. Theater has been around for thousands of years, and actors managed perfectly well without it for almost all of that time.
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I think this really could to a different look at the problem. Mic it up front with with several stage mics set the sound for the back of the house letting the natural loudness carry up front. If there is music, split the music mix so any upfront speakers just get the music.

Either way, the point that is brought up really changes the problem.
 
"Okay, stupid question: why are you miking individual actors? " Well said PT.

We had few resources for Gang Shows etc and so I bought 8 very cheap dynamic mics from Tandy of the type used for cassette records, the cheap mono ones.
Each mic was rewired with twin mic cable and a length of brass tube slid inside each one to make it hang nicely off a lighting barrel . Thus the mics stretched across the stage and rested about 7feet off the stage floor. All were connected in parallel (I would split them 4+4 now) and fed the pre amp. These gave a very fair level of voice with little "hoof" and of course could not get kicked as footlight mics can.

Dave.
 
Musical theatre - are they using headset mics? Hard to do mic technique with a headset.
 
Okay, stupid question: why are you miking individual actors? Most Broadway productions do this these days, but it's because the orchestrations tend to be loud and Broadway theaters are either very large, were designed and built more than a century ago before acoustics were considered by architects, or both.
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The thing is, the Broadway pros are the ones that need the mics the least.
 
PTravel said:
Okay, stupid question: why are you miking individual actors? Most Broadway productions do this these days, but it's because the orchestrations tend to be loud and Broadway theaters are either very large, were designed and built more than a century ago before acoustics were considered by architects, or both.

When amplification of Broadway shows first began in, roughly, the 60s, the goal was sound reinforcement, i.e. evening out the balance between the orchestra and performers, and, really, that is all that's necessary. Sound designers used (and, in many situations, still use), a series of boundary mikes (PZM mikes) placed along the stage apron. I would think that would be an excellent and easy-to-implement solution for a high-school production.

Of course, I'm old and well-remember when NO mikes were used for musical theater. I'm old-school enough to wonder why reinforcement, not to mention amplification, is needed at all. Theater has been around for thousands of years, and actors managed perfectly well without it for almost all of that time.
Click to expand...

Massive Master said:
The thing is, the Broadway pros are the ones that need the mics the least.
Click to expand...

Yup again for Massive Master.

There are a few things going on here.

First and foremost, audience expectations have changed. I once read a psychology treatise that stated that modern audiences have lost the skill of staying quiet and listening intently--they want sound handed to them on a silver platter with every quiet nuance amplified so even the cheap seats can hear them. I still try to do "sound reinforcement" for traditional style shows, i.e. I want everything heard clearly without the audience being aware that it's amplified. I'm sure I'm not alone in having had audience members approach me at the intermission complaining that the PA system was "obviously broken" because, although they could hear things, it didn't sound "loud".

Second, the skill of playing quietly is not one that high school musicians often exhibit. They tend to have one style, i.e. "LOUD" despite what the director or MD ask for to balance with the on stage cast. Add to this the fact that the majority of schools don't have pits and put the orchestra on the floor in front of the stage and even actors projecting well have trouble being heard over the music.

Third, acting styles have changed (probably influenced by cinema acting). No longer do actors "project" even on quiet scenes. Mumbled, whispered lines depending on the sound mixer are common.

...and, as MM says, the pro actors on Broadway need mics less than shy amateurs in high school, not more. Well, that's the theory. More and more stage actors now rely on mics even at professional level.

On a typical show, I'll use boundary mics (usually PCC 160s or (more recently) the Bartlett TM-125 (if you haven't tried them, do...they're excellent) as well as RF mics. The boundaries are good for picking up chorus singing and general amplification on speech scenes with no music.
 
ido1957 said:
Musical theatre - are they using headset mics? Hard to do mic technique with a headset.
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They're not quite headset mikes. They usually hide them in the actor's hair or costume.

Massive Master said:
The thing is, the Broadway pros are the ones that need the mics the least.
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Absolutely true. As Mama Rose says to Gypsy Rose Lee in "Gypsy," "Sing out, Louise!"

Bobbsy said:
Third, acting styles have changed (probably influenced by cinema acting). No longer do actors "project" even on quiet scenes. Mumbled, whispered lines depending on the sound mixer are common.
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I don't necessarily agree that acting styles for stage have changed. Theater acting is still a different skill with different demands from film. The problem is that, whereas stage actors can readily adapt to film, film and television actors cannot easily adapt to stage. I agree that audience expectations have changed. Part of it is stunt casting -- putting film and television actors in musicals in the hope of attracting a larger audience. Part of the problem is Disney, who produces staged-animation crap and calls it theater. Part of the problem is the unions (and not necessarily the performance guilds) and the value of property in the Times Square area, which results in astronomically high ticket costs to make the weekly "nut." Broadway audiences used to be almost exclusively drawn from the NY metropolitan area. It was something New Yorkers did for regular entertainment, the way the rest of the country goes to the movies. When I was growing up, I could buy an orchestra ticket to a hit Broadway show for $8-12. Now, that same ticket can cost $200 or more. As a result, audiences now are primarily out-of-towners who regard a Broadway show as a once-in-a-lifetime experience. Their tastes shape what is produced, resulting in a proliferation of Disney dreck, spectacle shows, revuesicals and other non'theater.

All of this is what is responsible for miking performers on the Broadway stage. However, the equipment they use (and the sound engineers who manage the equipment) are very, very, very good (and very expensive). When performer miking first started in the 70s, it was common for mikes to suddenly go dead, for horrendous feedback if two actors got to close, or, incredibly, to pick up the transmissions from the wireless mikes in the next door theater. Now, miking has gotten so good that is hardly noticeable.

Some of you know me as a lawyer, and that's been my career for the last 25 years. However, before that I was a professional actor with two graduate degrees in theater. When I was performing in musicals, we had no miking. It was part of our training to learn to project in both dialogue and singing.



...and, as MM says, the pro actors on Broadway need mics less than shy amateurs in high school, not more. Well, that's the theory. More and more stage actors now rely on mics even at professional level.

On a typical show, I'll use boundary mics (usually PCC 160s or (more recently) the Bartlett TM-125 (if you haven't tried them, do...they're excellent) as well as RF mics. The boundaries are good for picking up chorus singing and general amplification on speech scenes with no music.[/QUOTE]
 
"stunt casting"
Typo on the first word surely?

Dave. (remembering dear Kennie!)
 
On a typical show, I'll use boundary mics (usually PCC 160s or (more recently) the Bartlett TM-125 (if you haven't tried them, do...they're excellent) as well as RF mics. The boundaries are good for picking up chorus singing and general amplification on speech scenes with no music.
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One director I cross paths with frequently is a big Gilbert & Sullivan fan (as am I to some extent) and he likes to keep those particular classics a bit more traditional... "No body mics -- There weren't even *microphones* when these were written, much less all this wireless crap - If you can't sing, I don't want you on the stage" type stuff. Love it. A few PCC's across the front (tucked behind some wonderful Plexiglas shields of my own design that keep the pit out and give me another 6-8dB before feedback) and we're done.
 
Massive Master said:
One director I cross paths with frequently is a big Gilbert & Sullivan fan (as am I to some extent) and he likes to keep those particular classics a bit more traditional... "No body mics -- There weren't even *microphones* when these were written, much less all this wireless crap - If you can't sing, I don't want you on the stage" type stuff. Love it. A few PCC's across the front (tucked behind some wonderful Plexiglas shields of my own design that keep the pit out and give me another 6-8dB before feedback) and we're done.
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All I can say is, "hear, hear"! (pun intended) :)
 
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