High End vs Prosumer A/D Question

B

Bob's Mods

New member
If all the elements in your recording chain have been optimized, is there an audible difference in sonic quality between a standard prosumer A/D and a high end unit such as a Mytek or Benchmark?

Bob the Mod guy
 
I would say unquestionably yes. If it would be noticed on a single input is arguable to some extent. But stack a dozen tracks together and you'll hear it...
 
No question about it. When I bought a Lucid a/d I listened to a few cd tracks through my Lucid and my RME fireface back and forth. It was an eye-opening experience...much, much better through the Lucid's. I guess you could always argue though that if you are tracking individual tracks you can eq to a certain extent to make up for the differences but I think the higher level a/d's are the way you want to eventually go for the best sound.
 
funny as I have asked this question to many people before and have gotten a wide range of responses. I want to believe that I will hear the difference.I have been looking and a 16 in and 16 out ad/da unit.Its like 3500 bucks. For that I'd REALLY like to be blown away,but Im not so sure. I think it is very much like the argument about mic preamps. Are the high end mic pres really worth all that cash. To extend this out further,is a 3000.00 mic pre 10 times better than a 300.00 mic pre? I say no. At least it isnt 10 times better. I have pre's like v72a's, UA1108 converted, AM16'S,9475A'S. They are all nice but are they 5 to 10 times better than 1 channel of my Onyx pre's figuring the Onyx at 100.00 per channel..well really 50 bucks per channel? No, but there is a difference.It's just one more piece of the puzzel of quality.
 
Daveg62 said:
No question about it. When I bought a Lucid a/d I listened to a few cd tracks through my Lucid and my RME fireface back and forth. It was an eye-opening experience...much, much better through the Lucid's. I guess you could always argue though that if you are tracking individual tracks you can eq to a certain extent to make up for the differences but I think the higher level a/d's are the way you want to eventually go for the best sound.
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It has been my experience that there is a quality difference between an ITB conversion and an externally mounted convertor box. The recordings done with an externally mounted convertor box sound and stack better to my ears. I've done this a number of times with a number of different sound cards and external boxes over time and it was repeatable. It makes me wonder how Lynx stacks up with high end externally mounted convertor boxes. Lynx stuff is all ITB. ITB appears to be a tough environment for the conversion to take place. A dedicated box for conversion alone, based on my experience, appears to be the way to go.
 
jmorris said:
funny as I have asked this question to many people before and have gotten a wide range of responses. I want to believe that I will hear the difference.I have been looking and a 16 in and 16 out ad/da unit.Its like 3500 bucks. For that I'd REALLY like to be blown away,but Im not so sure. I think it is very much like the argument about mic preamps. Are the high end mic pres really worth all that cash. To extend this out further,is a 3000.00 mic pre 10 times better than a 300.00 mic pre? I say no. At least it isnt 10 times better. I have pre's like v72a's, UA1108 converted, AM16'S,9475A'S. They are all nice but are they 5 to 10 times better than 1 channel of my Onyx pre's figuring the Onyx at 100.00 per channel..well really 50 bucks per channel? No, but there is a difference.It's just one more piece of the puzzel of quality.
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I only record alone and stack tracks. You would have to determine if the cost of such a box would be worth it for your style of working. If you are a commercial studio making money off this then maybe. If you are recording for the fun of it or posting MP3s, then maybe not so go for the best you can within your budget.
 
jmorris said:
funny as I have asked this question to many people before and have gotten a wide range of responses. I want to believe that I will hear the difference.I have been looking and a 16 in and 16 out ad/da unit.Its like 3500 bucks. For that I'd REALLY like to be blown away,but Im not so sure. .
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ya gotta take into account the point of diminishing returns... often it's 10X's more dough to ring out the last 10% of increase... nothing new here...
 
My only comment on this is I have not yet heard sonic differences [for the better] from people that have owned better converters, VS someone owning just a MOTU, Echo, or the like. Coming from "pro" studios, yes, ..but I attribute much of that to the user and a little extra knowledge.

You have to know there are many people on these boards with high end stuff, because in the end, it isn't any more expensive than a car. Sure there are mostly people scraping together <$10k for their "hobby", but there are plenty that have $50K or more. Why do you think Pro tools is staying in business and places like Sweetwater that sell channel strips for $2000?

My point...I'm sure the quality when you get the "best" is most definately there, but there's a lot more to the equation and I don't believe I've really heard someone say that their Lynx or Fireface is holding them back from making truely great recordings.

I'm sure this isn't in 100% agreement, but when listening to people's end results, I scratch my head thinking things like what goes into the converter first, need better attention.
 
mixmkr said:
My only comment on this is I have not yet heard sonic differences [for the better] from people that have owned better converters, VS someone owning just a MOTU, Echo, or the like. Coming from "pro" studios, yes, ..but I attribute much of that to the user and a little extra knowledge.

You have to know there are many people on these boards with high end stuff, because in the end, it isn't any more expensive than a car. Sure there are mostly people scraping together <$10k for their "hobby", but there are plenty that have $50K or more. Why do you think Pro tools is staying in business and places like Sweetwater that sell channel strips for $2000?

My point...I'm sure the quality when you get the "best" is most definately there, but there's a lot more to the equation and I don't believe I've really heard someone say that their Lynx or Fireface is holding them back from making truely great recordings.

I'm sure this isn't in 100% agreement, but when listening to people's end results, I scratch my head thinking things like what goes into the converter first, need better attention.
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The quality of what is recorded on the medium is not connected in any way to the technology that records it. Both are separate and distinct. Great technology will not make a shit song any more enjoyable to the listener. A great tune however will still sound good on lesser gear down to certain limits.
 
Bob's Mods said:
The quality of what is recorded on the medium is not connected in any way to the technology that records it. Both are separate and distinct. Great technology will not make a shit song any more enjoyable to the listener. A great tune however will still sound good on lesser gear down to certain limits.
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I think you are right AND wrong in all comments. I'm talking about observing gain staging, mic placement, etc, etc, etc...... that does make a diff to what is recorded. Not the 'genius' of a song. However, those technical aspects are much more forgiving than they were 30 years ago, since those MOTU cards don't drown your projects with tape hiss. Specifically, I'm hearing lousy tuned drum sets, with dumpy drum heads, with poorly positioned mics, played by amatuer musicians, thinking they'd get a better final result if they upgrade their Layla 3G to something with another zero added on to the price tag.

Also, I think a well produced and recorded song (ie superior technology) will make it more 'enjoyable' to the listener. That explains why there is so much "junk" on the internet, but recorded pretty decent....decent enough to actually listen to it, because you enjoy the "sound" Vs the song. I might suggest "trance" music...but that's another thread :)

I will agree with your last sentence...but we're getting OT.

I think the most relevent comment was made as to stacking these tracks, that the 'rough edges' start to compound, analogous to a pile of off axis mics on a drum kit contributiong to a muddy, phased out sound.

One EQ (or whatever) notch by itself is just fine. Times 20 gets shrill.

Hey... one track in 16 bit recorded great... no problems there either.... to some extent!

merry CHRISTmas :)
 
dementedchord said:
ya gotta take into account the point of diminishing returns... often it's 10X's more dough to ring out the last 10% of increase... nothing new here...
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Yes!! you are exactly on my page...or Im on yours.For pre's, the extra amout you pay is not in line with the raise in quality.
 
mixmkr said:
I think you are right AND wrong in all comments. I'm talking about observing gain staging, mic placement, etc, etc, etc...... that does make a diff to what is recorded. Not the 'genius' of a song. However, those technical aspects are much more forgiving than they were 30 years ago, since those MOTU cards don't drown your projects with tape hiss. Specifically, I'm hearing lousy tuned drum sets, with dumpy drum heads, with poorly positioned mics, played by amatuer musicians, thinking they'd get a better final result if they upgrade their Layla 3G to something with another zero added on to the price tag.Also, I think a well produced and recorded song (ie superior technology) will make it more 'enjoyable' to the listener. That explains why there is so much "junk" on the internet, but recorded pretty decent....decent enough to actually listen to it, because you enjoy the "sound" Vs the song. I might suggest "trance" music...but that's another thread :)

I will agree with your last sentence...but we're getting OT.

I think the most relevent comment was made as to stacking these tracks, that the 'rough edges' start to compound, analogous to a pile of off axis mics on a drum kit contributiong to a muddy, phased out sound.

One EQ (or whatever) notch by itself is just fine. Times 20 gets shrill.

Hey... one track in 16 bit recorded great... no problems there either.... to some extent!

merry CHRISTmas :)
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Holly shit! You are right on the money with that comment!!! Kind of relates to a thread I started back in Sept. about a live gig I di where the FOH sound guy did not know his ass from his elbow, IMHO, as to how to mic up a full band! But....he was FOH sound guy.I had to record the event and deal with the results. You cant substutute knowlage of high end gear, the in's and out's for knowlage of basic recording skills.Mic placement, gain structure etc.
 
My whole point with this was if the whole project and gear were optimized, great song, great engineer, etc and the A/D box was swapped, one with a prosumer unit and another take with a high end unit, is the difference a sonic step up? The answer appears to be yes.

Bob
 
Bob's Mods said:
My whole point with this was if the whole project and gear were optimized, great song, great engineer, etc and the A/D box was swapped, one with a prosumer unit and another take with a high end unit, is the difference a sonic step up? The answer appears to be yes.

Bob
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And I would agree with that and apologize if I got things running down a rabbit trail.

I [confusingly] tried to bring up the other aspect, because to some extent, you DO get what you pay for...diminishing returns or not. And, I can understand your original post to seek confirmation. I also understand that to quite a lot of people (even home reccors), getting the best possible A/D -D/A is the most important over saving some $$.


I did post originally
My point...I'm sure the quality when you get the "best" is most definately there, but there's a lot more to the equation and I don't believe I've really heard someone say that their Lynx or Fireface is holding them back from making truely great recordings.
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So....wadda ya shoppin for....now that after Christmas sales ought to begin!!! :)
 
I'm no high end user. I notice a dramatic difference in the upgrade department going from my old delta 1010's to my Yamaha N12. I also see users in the N12 thread on gearsluts who used the RME fireface before the N12 and said they noticed an improvement. I can't confirm that, I just read it. I'd say the performance has the biggest impact on any recording regardless of the gear used. I totaly agree with mixmkr in the respect of bad recordings people are making based on their technique rather than their gear. Sometimes you can make your mixes sound $10,000 better by just moving the mics around.
 
LemonTree said:
I'm no high end user. I notice a dramatic difference in the upgrade department going from my old delta 1010's to my Yamaha N12. I also see users in the N12 thread on gearsluts who used the RME fireface before the N12 and said they noticed an improvement. I can't confirm that, I just read it. I'd say the performance has the biggest impact on any recording regardless of the gear used. I totaly agree with mixmkr in the respect of bad recordings people are making based on their technique rather than their gear. Sometimes you can make your mixes sound $10,000 better by just moving the mics around.
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I agree completely. I wanted all that out of the equation though. Just optimize everything in the process and A/B the converter box. Can you hear a difference? The answer is a clear yes. That is what I was looking for. You can still create pretty good mixes on average stuff thats true. I want my mixes moved up a few notches though. That is a free will choice I am making for my work. It is not a requirement for listener enjoyment. Its more my own itch for ever higher playback quality only.


Bob
 
jmorris said:
Yes!! you are exactly on my page...or Im on yours.For pre's, the extra amout you pay is not in line with the raise in quality.
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It never is...for anything. Any time you are talking about a quality jump, the price is never in line.

Is a Lamborgini really 15 times better than a Mustang? Or 5 times better than a Corvette?
 
It is better...15xs more, if you can use it correctly and appreciate it.

Think of this scenario; you get the upper end product, you put it thru its' paces and past the limits of your previous product, you're recognized for doing so, and consequently, make 150xs what you'd ever thought you could do. In other words, how would selling 200,000 of your CDs thru your own label shake up your finances?:cool:

Tom Sellec (sp?) just wouldn't have cut it driving a Mustang instead of his Ferrarri....eh?

Now...if you're Luke and Bo Duke :eek:
 
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