Hi, I'm new here

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Dave W

New member
Hey, everybody,

I am a lifetime musician who wants to try some home recording. The problem is that I know just about nothing about it.

I am not, however, without any equipment. My dad (who has passed) was a recording tech with Shawnee Press Records and a communications engineer, and when he passed, he left me some kinda neat (if antique) analog stuff. I have a few old Atlas Boom stands, a few mikes (some very good), a battered old SLM electronics powered mixing board, and a mess of other small stuff, like a gallon or so of little plug adapter thingies, which my dad considered to be really important.

What I don't have, however, is a clue about where to go from here.

I have a vague idea about doing a weekly podcast featuring a little music, and a chapter a week of one of the spectacularly unsuccessful stories I write. This would be linked to sales points for print on demand CD's and books.

I do the music pretty well. I use my voice pretty well. I would really like for the recordings to be good, or even excellent.

I was hoping you guys could help me with that.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Analog is the way to go, but you seem to be veering toward the digital realm.
You have the mics and probably tons of cables.
Go out and buy an interface, a little peice of technology that converts your mic signal to digital. You plug that into your computer that you already have.
Now all you need is some cheap and not too complicated program for recording. Like audacity, you can download that for free.
Everything else is intuitive.:D
 
And if your just pod casting... have you already started?






:cool:
 
I haven't started yet. I am still trying to learn how to make this all work.

The Chiken Master was correct. Once you download Audacity, a lot of this stuff is pretty intuitive. I am still stumbling along in the dark, but at this point, it's just a lot of fun.

The learning curve (so far) is pretty gentle. I would like to include some decent musical recordings with each of the 'casts, and that means learning to make those recordings.

I am pretty sure that most of the folks on this board are musicians, so they understand about not wanting a poor quality recording to get out.

I am going to have a bit of a problem dealing with the sound card stuff. I have a Dell desktop, and I tried to upgrade the soundcard about a year ago. Since then, I have not been able to get the machine to accept any sound input. I assume that I did something wrong on the upgrade. I am a techno idiot, so the safest bet was that I screwed up someplace.

But, for the moment, I am learning by using the mic input on the netbook. I know that admitting that will make me look pretty stupid to you guys, but that seems smarter than pretending that I know something that I don't.

And thanks for the help so far. Just the audacity program makes me feel like I might be able to manage this.

thanks

Dave
 
Dave,
Heck we all started out there.
I'd rather know where you really stand knowlege wise.

You know....you will probably get all you answers here, but one thing that could really speed you along is to list your location.
Sometimes ther are folks in your area that would be willing to walk you through some stuff in person...it would go a lot faster.
 
Tmix,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have edited my profile to show my location. Unfortunately, I am in south eastern Germany, and it is unlikely that anybody is close enough to be a difference in that.

I got Audacity running today, and had a lot of fun playing with it, and along the way I learned some things.

One of the things that I learned was that using the mike input gives me very little signal. The Netbook I am using (see the previous post for why I can't make the desktop work) is "easily confused" in that the two jacks can be used for line in, mic, headphones, or a line out.

I will experiment tonight about switching from mic to line in, though I suspect that line in would require a digital signal, rather than an old Sennheiser. The other option is to fire up old Bertha (the SLM Electronics powered mixer) and see what I can do with that. I am a little hesitant to do that, because Bertha can push a pair of twelve inch speakers for a small club gig, plus a monitor. I am betting that might be a little too much juice for the little netbook. I am afraid that I might cook something off.

I am not entirely sure about the analog/digital interface thingy. I don't doubt you guys, it's just that I don't know exactly what it is. Amazon has one for sale, but the customer reviews speak badly of it, and it might not even be the right thingy.

And once again, thanks.

I am having gallons of fun.

Dave
 
If you're running a mic into the computer, you'll likely want a mic preamp to run into the line-in. It's possible that the mixer you mentioned may have a preamp of some kind build into it. Worth checking out to get you started with.

As for interfaces (AKA soundcard), there is a lot of stuff out there, good and bad. Many people will recommend different things, so I'll start by recommending the M-Audio Delta 44. It's a little old now, so might be worth looking into something newer, but it's solid and not too pricey. 4 inputs, 4 outputs, very simple to set up. Mine has been very good to me over the years, and I've never experienced any real problems with it.

Don't get conned into buying anything with the word 'Audigy' written on it. A lot of people get roped in by the marketing, which touts them as some all purpose media card perfect for recording. They aren't. They suck. Great for movies and games, but suck for recording. But that's enough slightly irrelevant negativity for now.

In terms of software, Audacity is a good way to get a feel for the whole digital thing, but I'm not too familiar with it's multitracking capabilities. I'm not sure if it has any at all....

Reaper is worth checking out. It'll do most of what the really expensive stuff like Cubase etc does, including multitracking, but for a fraction of the price. It's actually free on an unlimited trial, but it's worth paying the $60 or so for if you like it, as it has some great support and the people that make it deserve every penny they make out of it.
 
Firstly, ditch the whole idea of using the sound card if you want great results. It's probably not going to give you very high quality recordings. You could tell us what it is, just in case, though.

Like others have said, your best bet would be to get an audio interface.
What this will do is allow you to plug in your mic(s), boost the signal with built-in preamps, and convert the analog signal into digital so your computer can accept it, and pass through a USB or firewire cable into your computer.

I'm not sure what interfaces are the best bang for the buck right now, but others have suggested a couple of them in posts above. You definitely don't need to spend more than $300 for what you are wanting to do. Maybe not even more than $100 (USD)..

If you don't like this idea, you CAN try using your mixer (if it has preamps). Take the output from a channel on it into your sound card (if you can get that working), into a program like Audacity or Reaper. Reaper is far more powerful than Audacity, though.

Good luck, and let us know how you fare!
 
audacity sucks.

Agreed.

Yeah...you CAN record with it...but I certainly wouldn't even begin to consider it a "DAW". :rolleyes:

A much better, "almost free" DAW is N-Track Studio (Google it)....only about $60-$70 USD, but much more so a real DAW.
From there...you can go deeper and deeper in to higher-end (and higher priced) applications...there are many out there to chose from.
 
Also, most interfaces on the market come with a Lite version of a popular DAW, like Cubase, Ablelton, or Sonar. Look for this when shopping around. They are very functional and will do most everything you need. Plus they're free.

You should also put a list up of the things your dad left behind, particularly the analog stuff. Poeple might suggest what is worth keeping or selling.

Good luck and have fun,
 
Hi Dave! Welcome to HR! I'm glad you're having fun in the recording process! In my opinion, that's the most important part!
 
Yo Dave, and welcome to the board! Your basic questions are so broad that it is like the blind men and the elephant. All folks can do is take little bites out of it, and to make matters more confusing, we don't all agree. All I can do is tell you who I am (which allows you to put my comments in perspective), begin defining terms, and give you general advice, which is only my opinion.

I am a lot like you, a singer-songwriter for many years, who got involved with recording. Almost ten years later, I have a studio that could fairly be called a pretty good project studio, with about $40,000 worth of gear. I'm no where near pro level. Recording is like quicksand. The harder you struggle, the deeper in you get, and the harder it is to escape.

OK first- the analog vs digital debate- Excellent professional recordings have been made both ways, and there are strong proponents of both approaches on this board. You'll find the hard core analog people on that discussion forum. A lot of recording, especially at the big time pro level, involves a combination of the two. Marketers want the words to have a magical quality.- "digitally remastered" often means "great classic recording screwed up by a computer nerd for money". Pure analog recording is costly, and involves equipment that is increasingly difficult to get. I would not recommend analog recording to a beginner unless he's a mechanic with a lot of discretionary income. For a beginner on a middle class budget, the bang-for-buck advantage goes to digital recording. I started with analog years ago, for the record, and have nothing against it.

What is this "interface" thing you ask? For your presentation to become a podcast, at some point, you start with actual vibrations in air (sound), which is inherently analog, and you end with X's and O's that a computer can understand. Everything from the one to the other is called the "signal chain". How your signal chain is set up is the core of how you record. For the record, there is a current trend toward *starting* with X's and O's, where the computer generates the signal from a bank of stored data. Often these "samples" started as real sound, but are stored and accessed digitally. In this way, you can play a note on an electronic keyboard, and using an interface protocol called MIDI, the keyboard accesses a stored sample of Rachmaninoff playing the same note on an 1890 Steinway Grand, in a perfect room, recorded with expensive mics by badass pros. This is also often done with drums, using "triggers" attached to the drums, which act as a controller to tell the computer to access stored drum samples.

In more radical genres such as techno, the computer may actually generate the signal. There never was a real sound in a real acoustic space. For the record, I know very little about these approaches. I record real sound in real acoustic space, but it's important to know that that isn't the only way to create recorded sound. From this point, everything I say will have to do with recording real sound in real space.

The signal chain starts with the source. More about that later, as it is *critical*. The source starts as an electronic signal, as in an electronic keyboard, or real sound, which is translated into an electronic signal by a microphone or pickup. Then it goes to a preamplifier (pre or preamp for short). The preamp changes the mic or instrument signal to "line level", which most recording systems are looking for. There are 2 "line levels"- -10dBV and +4dBu. -10 is "consumer" line level, and is what is put out by a home stereo, Walkman, boombox, ipod, etc. +4 is "pro" line level, and is put out by most mixers and professional or "prosumer" recording equipment. Many inputs have a switch to change from one to the other. A mixer is likely to have a "tape in" input, which is specifically looking for -10. The input and output have to use the same line level, which for our purposes, is usually +4.

This line level signal may now go either to a power amplifier, as in a PA or guitar amp, to increase the signal to sufficient strength to drive one or more speakers. If it is being recorded, the signal then either goes to tape (analog), or it goes to an analog to digital converter (digital), and then to a computer, where it can be stored and processed in some recording software program. This is where you have to start making decisions. In the basic signal chain, the components may all be separate, or combined in various combinations. There is also monitoring and playback to be considered. At some point in the signal chain, we need to take a feed for headphones, and we need to be able to play back the sound through speakers, usually specialized studio monitor speakers. To drive speakers, you need a power amplifier, which may be a separate unit, or built into the monitors. If the monitors have built in power amps, they are called "active" or "powered" speakers. If not, they are called "passive". The headphone and monitor components comprise the "monitor chain", which is separate from the signal chain. In order to make good recordings, you have to be able to hear them accurately. The cost of really good studio monitors will shock you, and no, you can't get out of it.

At some point in the chain, "FX" (effects) are likely to be applied, either for dynamic control, as with compression or limiting, for tone control, such as EQ (equalization), or time based effects, such as reverb or delay. These can come from a separate FX unit, or from the computer, often using software programs called "plugins". FX can be appled at any point in the signal chain, from the very beginning to the very end, and may be applied to just one track, or to the entire recording, as is often done in "mastering". More on mixing and mastering later. Where and how FX is applied is often the difference between two recording engineers, and our decisions are often what defines the final recording. It is the palette of the recording engineer as an artist.

The most common signal chain configurations are as follows, and each has advantages and disadvantages;

1. The "standalone" digital recorder, AKA "SIAB" (studio in a box): This is a device that contains mic preamps, A-D conversion, monitor outputs, and the capability of internal processing. It also contains a computer specialized for recording music, built in software, has inputs for mics, and may or may not have some built in mics. Most recent models can export digital audio data to a computer for further processing and export. Some have built in CD burners for export and backup. SIAB's run the gamut from handheld stereo recorders to full blown 24 track digital recording consoles.
Advantages- they get you started right away, and win on portability for remote recording.
Disadvantages- They are difficult or impossible to expand or upgrade, and you can't replace or upgrade one component in the signal chain, either for repair or upgrades.

2. The computer interface: I told you I'd get to this. This is a box that is like a SIAB, except that it doesn't contain the computer. It plugs into a computer, is often powered by a USB connection, and uses a desktop or laptop to record and process the audio data. They export audio data to the computer, as a rule, by USB or firewire formats. Many come with some kind of audio processing software. Some include FX capabilities.
Advantages: Wins on bang-for-buck, because they use the processing power and memory of the computer you already have.
Disadvantages: They are only as portable as your computer is. They also have limited ability to repair or upgrade individual components. If you blow a preamp in an interface, you don't have a dead preamp, you have a dead interface.

3. The component system: In this system, you have separate components- a preamp, an A-D converter, an FX box (maybe), and the signal is sent to a computer or digital recorder.
Advantages: You can replace or repair any component in the chain, and upgrade at will. You can switch to other components for a different sound, or to meet the requirements of different recording situations. The highest quality components are mostly standalone boxes. The best preamps, A-D converters, and FX units in the world are standalone components.
Disadvantages: This is the high-priced spread, and the prices of the best pres, FX, and A-D converters will give you some major-league sticker shock. In each case, top quality units are in the thousands. In most cases, these are the least portable systems. This is the approach of most major studios.

4. Analog systems: These can be component systems, using a reel-to-reel (open reel) recorder, often with multiple tracks recorded on very wide tape going very fast (such as 2" tape at 30"/sec) down to 4 track cassette portastudios, the forerunner of the SIAB.
Advantages: they are intuitive, and the best analog systems produce excellent reproduction of bass frequencies. Yes, there is an "analog sound", and it can be a very good one.
Disadvantages: A fading technology, parts and service can be hard to come by. These units have moving parts, and can require considerable maintenance. The really good analog systems are wicked expensive to acquire and maintain. The cassette portastudio, IMHO, generally produces inferior sound quality when compared to comarably priced digital systems. Editing is far more difficult, and has serious limitations compared to digital systems. This is why top recording studios often edit in the digital domain, and mix down to an analog deck, so they can get the simplicity of digital editing, but try to preserve that classic analog sound.


Which system you settle on depends on what you intend to record, and what you intend to do with the finished recording, as well as your available budget. It is also influenced by your individual style.

A word on mixers- What is a mixer, what does it do, and do you need one? Mixers take a group of inputs, whether mic, line, or instruments, and "mix" them into 2 or more outputs called "busses". So- a 16 X 4 mixer has 16 inputs, but only 4 outputs. The mixer may contain some FX, reverb and EQ being most common, and may be "powered", so they can drive passive PA speakers. Some are digital, containing an A-D converter, so they can output a digital signal to a computer. SIAB's and portastudios contain some mixing capabilities, as a rule. You can also do the mixing in computer software, often called mixing "in the box". Mixers are often used when you have more signals than you have inputs. Example- 6-8 mics on a drum kit going into a 2 channel interface. You can use the mixer to turn the 6 signals into 2 busses, and then record. The downside is that if the busses aren't mixed right in the first place, you can't go back and change the relative levels. IMHO, most beginning recorders don't need a mixer, and don't know enough to use one properly. Some mixers, such as the Carvin studio mate, have a monitor section with power amps to drive passive speakers.

OK- there's an overview. Now for the promised general advice, which will generally not be what you want to hear. Here it is:

1. Don't spend *any* money right now. You don't know enough to spend it wisely. It is time for research, not purchases.

2. Get a *much* better handle on the gear you've already got. Start with those mics. What mics? Model numbers and pictures, please. You could have a treasure trove or a pile of junk, or both. Find out everything you can about any unit you already have. Folks on this board will be very helpful in identifying obscure units. Mics in particular haven't changed much over the years, and many old ones are expensive, useful, and desirable. Many others are just obsolete collectibles. If you don't know anything about the gear you have, you are not ready to buy any. Take stock of any computers you already own. How much RAM, how fast is the processor, and how big is the hard drive? Time to start finding out what some of those adaptors do. Hell, I've got about $1500 in *cables*. You may already have that sitting on your floor!

3. Start thinking about the signal chain from the beginning, not the end. It starts with a sound, in a room. The song, the instrument, the performance, *the room*!!!! I cannot emphasize this enough. If you record a great performance, of a great song, on a great instrument, with the right mic (not the most expensive mic), in the right place, into a great preamp, into a great A-D converter, into any recorder or computer, in a *bad* room, all you will get is an accurate recording of the fact that your room *sucks*! Rooms can be modified, up to a point, and that is where you need to begin, while you research your gear. Spend some time on the studio building and display forum. Take stock of the recording space you have, and study standing waves, phase distortion, and bass traps. Creating or re-creating the right acoustic recording space will make everything else easier. Trying to record in a bad room will make everything harder, if not impossible.

4. Figure out what your real initial budget is, and give us an idea, as it will directly impact what recording system you settle on, and what components we will recommend. It is not useful for me to tell a guy how cool a $2500 preamp is, when he has a $350 budget! This is the key- *be patient*. The more you know, the better your decisions will be, and the better you will be able to assess the relevence of the opinions of folks on this board.

While there are many units and approaches I could recommend, it is not time yet, What units you choose to use will depend on the number of simultaneous tracks you need to record, your practical budget, and the gear you already have. You will need to tell us what you need to record. Is it just you and your guitar, or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir on backing vocals with the rhythm section of Earth, Wind, and Fire? If the latter, you may need a bigger room. Consider what you might want to do in the future, so you can build the amount of expandibility you will need into your system. The learning curve is steeper than you think, and you will end up spending money on things you've never even heard of, yet. If you stick with it, it is one of the most exciting adventures you'll ever embark on.

In conclusion, understand this- Being a recording engineer and/or a recording artist is a profession, different and distinct from being a performing musician. You didn't learn to play and perform overnight. I bet it took years, and is still an ongoing process. Studio microphones are the most ruthless critics in the world. They don't care how cool you look, and performing for them is like performing in the nude. You can't hide anything- they know what you ate for breakfast. Becoming a recording engineer is like becoming a doctor or a plumber. It's not an instant process, but a path that you are taking your first steps on. We'll be there for you. Start by telling us about your room, exactly what instruments and voices you need to record, and every blessed piece of equipment you already own. More later on tracking, mixing, and mastering, and how they differ. Right now, let's worry about tracking. Best of luck-Richie
 
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Your basic questions are so broad that it is like the blind men and the elephant.
The entirety of that was long, deep and thorough and worth the read, for the most part. But I'm intrigued by the blind men and the elephant. What is it about the blind men and the elephant Richie ? I have to know !


Oh yeah, and welcome Dave.
 
Well, Grim, I don't know whether you know the tale, but I think it was brought from India by Rudyard Kipling. A group of blind men were told to tell a Rajah what an elephant was like, who had never seen one. The blind men had all laid their hands on it to get the measure of it. One said it was like a snake, another like a rope. One said that it was like a spear, another like a wall. Yet another swore it was like a tree trunk.

The Rajah was getting set to behead them all as liars, when the sighted guru shows up and explains that they are all telling the truth. It has a tail like a rope, a nose like a snake, legs like tree trunks, sides like a wall, and tusks like spears. It is, of course, a metaphor for tunnel vision, which is a form of self-imposed blindness. Sometimes questions are so broad that they are like the elephant, and we give our snippets of answers, addressing little parts of the big questions.

This can be very confusing to a noob, who has no idea how big a question he is asking. My strategy is to broaden my focus, and give big answers to big questions. If a noob is asking general questions, he probably needs general information and advice. The time to do it is before he spends whatever money he has on gear that is not right for what he is trying to do. Moreover, some noobs get my attention, because they ask their big question in English, can spell, and are polite. It's just my prejudice, I guess. If the big question is asked in text message and gangsta rap, I'll probably ignore it. The original poster in this case seems to have a reasonable mission, and I think it can be done without selling the car. He just needs to see the elephant with full-court vision.-Richie
 
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Ah....actually, that's a pretty apt analogy.
 
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