Hey Everyone: PA System???

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IronsideMessiah

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Hey guys, I suppose I'm a newbie in the sense that I only registered for this site 10 min. ago, and also I've only been playing guitar for a few years. I have a band, and we're getting good enough to start playing live. I'd really appreciate it if someone could help me with a PA system explanation. I get the idea that your instruments and mics go to a mixer, which goes to speakers, but that's about it. :confused: the biggest confusion i have is how do you avoid blowing out your speakers? i'll have a bassist and a two guitarists plugging into the mixer at any given time, along with a mic. How do you buy speakers that won't blow out? where do you look to see how much the speaker can handle, and how much your amp outputs, that sort of thing. Also: I've been told that there's no power in mics, so if we just plug in a singers mic, and mic the rest of the instruments amps, theres no danger of blowing out the speakers right? the only danger is if we connected the amps straight to the mixer? We'll be playing in churches, coffea houses, maybe a school gym, nothing huge. Can you give me an idea of how many watts or OHM's or whatever I will need? i'm sure you experienced people are groaning and rolling your eyes, but any help would be appreciated. It seems like no one can give me a straight answer on how to keep from blowing out your speakers, and how large a speaker you'll need. I say again, if you can answer any (or all) of the questions in this post, i'd really appreciate it.
 
Don't plug your amps directly into the PA system from their speaker outputs. Big no-no. Mic the amps or go direct (micing is optimal).
 
The above link that apl suggested is a good idea. That may be your easiest way. I'll try to explain and keep this simple.

Since you seem to be a complete novice, it wouldn't hurt to do some other reading about PA systems in general...there's literally dozens of companies that make them. Here's what you'd basically need:

1. A powered mixer (as in the link above) OR a seperate mixer and power amp. Your mixer will have to have enough channels for all your inputs (mics and instruments).
2. A pair of speakers for the audience to hear.
3. A pair of monitor speakers for the band to hear.
4. At least 4 speaker cables (better to be too long than too short).
5. Microphones for each singer and amplifier. The reason being, it's better to mic each amplifier as not all of them have a direct output to go to a mixer. (You cannot use an amp speaker out to go to a mixer).
6. Probably some speaker stands would be handy...and mic stands.

You won't blow out your speakers as long as you get speakers that are rated (watts) equal to or more than your amplifier (watts). Now, you can blow speakers by other ways...like plugging things in while the power is on and your volume controls are up...and a few other ways when common sense decides not to show up some night. ;)

And remember to match not only the wattage of power amps and speakers, but also the ohms. It may sound confusing, but it really isn't. Do some research and you'll be amazed at what you may already know. Hope this helps.
 
Why is plugging an amp into a PA system a "big no-no"? what does it mean to "go direct"?
 
And by the way, thanks a lot guys, this helps a ton. When it comes to live sound, "a complete novice" is putting it kindly, so I really appreciate it.
 
A few last things: What are moniter speakers? I have done some research, and I haven't come across them ever. They've never been mentioned at any stores I go to either.
Secondly, (this is probably a stupid question) when matching the wattage up to your amp, do you match the total wattage (i.e. amp 1 + amp 2 etc.) or just the highest number of watts a single amp has? Does wattage matter on a mixer, or just the speaker?
 
monitor speakers? like stage/wedge monitors? They are the things that allow you to hear yourself. I don;t know the highest wattage a single amp has. It doesn't matter, you don't need it. All you need to worry about is that you get an power amplifier with the same wattage and ohms as the speakers, so like 2x600w at 4ohm amp with 2 600 watt 4ohm speakers. An easier way of ensuring it is the right thing is to go with active/powered speakers. They are more expensive, but much easier, especially if you don't know what you are doing. For small gigs you will be looking for something around 400-600watt. Any analogue mixer will do really, and if you mean the output(headphone or DI)of a guitar amp, it should be fine. But if it is the powered output that would go into the speaker of your guitar/bass amps then def no. If i were you I'd DI the bass, you can get a DI box quite cheap, i got one for around £7 thats around $10. If you have an effects pedal for guitars I'd DI the output from that and go straight to the desk. Just my opinion 'cause it frees up space for arsing around, lol. Or, if you are going to use amps, i would mic them instead of plugging straight to the desk. Have volume quite low so you/the sound engineer have more control over the levels. Also I'd get a multicore/stage box, as it means you/the sound engineer can stand up the back of the hall, leaving the front for the crowd, and allowing you to get the right levels, instead of doing it at the side of the stage. I'd get a mixing desk like this as it has 16 xlr/preamps. Whick means, up to 16 mics and DI boxes. With something like this, 600+w active speakers, stage monitors, ok mics, stage box, and stands you could probably set up a PA hire business, where you go out as the engineer and put on small gigs. That's what i plan to do with mine. I only have 400w active speakers though.
 
Sorry, let me be clearer with that question. I wasn't asking the largest wattage an amp can have, what I ment to ask was this: All of you are referring to matching a single amp with a single PA system (example used above) 2x600w at 4ohm amp with 2 600 watt 4ohm speakers and likewise for the rest of the system. My question was if you have multiple amps, (in my case, an entire band full of amps) do all of the amps wattage in the band have to add up to the wattage of the speakers, or does each amps wattage have to equal the speakers wattage?

And PandaMonk used some terms I'm not familiar with. What's a "Desk", and a "stage box"? i'm assuming a mixing desk is the same thing as a mixer, is "desk" just short for "mixing desk" which is another name for a "mixer"?

And finally, I've learned that "moniter speakers" or as PandaMonk says "stage/wedge speakers" allow you to hear yourself, (maybe it's because PandaMonk appears to be european that I dont know any of these terms) but where do you buy them? I thought a PA system just involved a mixer and speakers. I haven't looked at moniter speakers at all, are those really necessary for the small clubs and whatnot I'll be using them for? and do those just plug into the mixer somewhere?

sorry guys, any help really is appreciated though.
 
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Yo Ironside! Let's start simple, because like a Japanese owner's manual, these guys are assuming you know stuff that you don't. A speaker out and a line out are 2 whole different animals. Basically, a system for live sound reinforcement consists of a preamp section, a power amp section, and one or more speakers. This system could be a guitar amp, which is designed to
change the sound being inputted, hopefully to make it sound better, or a clean power amp, designed to make the signal from the preamp more powerful, without changing it too much. PA systems tend to be the second type. Of course, some guitar amps, especially acoustic guitar amps and some bass amps are pretty damned clean.

The power amp can be in the mixer or PA head, in the speaker enclosure, or a completely separate unit. If the power amp is in the speaker enclosure, it is called an "active" or "powered" speaker. So- for a PA, you can use a nonpowered mixer into an active speaker, a powered mixer into a passive speaker, or the mixer, the power amp, and the speaker can be 3 separate units altogether.

Many live speaker systems use crossovers, so that low frequencies are sent to speakers built for that (woofers) and high frequencies are sent to speakers built for that (tweeters). There are likely to be specific speakers for midrange frequencies as well. If a speaker enclosure has a woofer and a tweeter, they call it a "2 way" speaker. If there is also a midrange speaker(s), it is called "3 way". As with power amps, the crossover can also be a separate unit, usually rack mounted. A speaker/cab built specifically for very low frequencies is called a subwoofer. Because low frequencies have very long wavelengths, they are not really directional. Therefore, a system may have 2 2-way or 3-way enclosures, or 2 main speaker arrays and a single subwoofer in the middle. Massive systems may have a number of dedicated speaker cabs, and the multichannel crossover from hell.

Monitors, like main speakers, can be active, or passive. They are smaller speakers, usually on the stage facing you, so that you can hear yourself and the other members of the band. In some cases, the monitor is in your ear, like a hearing aid, and is wireless. Some drummers prefer headphones to monitors, because they attenuate (cut down) the drums around them, so they can hear the other band members. Advanced systems can send customized monitor mixes to the different members of the band, so each of them can hear what they need to. Obviously, as the size and complexity of the system increases, the more it costs, the more gear you have to move, and the more engineering you will need for the setup and performance. Some small bands that do small gigs don't even use monitors.

An active speaker (with a power amp in it) is looking for a line level signal, which is what comes from a preamp. A preamp is designed to raise the relatively weak signal of a mic to line level, so that it can drive a power amp, which will then drive a speaker cab. Mixers are basically a bunch of preamps with separate controls, and a variety of options for configuring those outputs. A preamp that is designed for an instrument input like a guitar, is called a direct box or DI (direct injection) for short. Instrument inputs are looking for higher impedence than most mics. This is called an instrument, high impedence, or high-z input. Some mixers have high-z inputs, but many don't. Note that some mics, especially older ones, or specialty mics, like harmonica mics, sometimes are looking for a high-z input, rather than a "mic" input. Most modern stage mics are low impedence, and are looking for a "mic" input. In most modern systems, the mic inputs will be 3-pin XLR connectors, and most line and high-z inputs are 1/4", like a guitar cable. Some guitar and bass amps have line level outputs, which are OK to plug into a line level input on a mixer, PA head, power amp, or active speaker. Many amps *don't have* a line level out. That's why folks are telling you not to plug a guitar amp into a mixer or PA. They are afraid you will plug the speaker output (post-power amp) into a mixer preamp, and blow it to kingdom come. Doing that is like firing a bazooka at a dartboard.

In recent times, there have become available specialized guitar preamps, which characteristically use digital amp modeling technology to try and copy the sound of a bunch of different amps. They can be plugged directly into a line level input on a recording device, or into a PA. High end- Pod XRT. Cheap- Behringer Vamp2. Most guitarists would agree that amp modeling preamps are still inferior to the sound of a good amp. Problem- the line out on an amp plugged into a PA usually does not sound as good as the specially chosen preamp/poweramp/speaker cab combination that the amp uses to get that killer sound. Common solution- put a mic in front of the amp and send that to a mic input on the PA.

How much power you need in a PA depends on the type of music, the size of the crowd/hall, and how big your amps are in the fiirst place. If you are playing a gig with 50 people and you have a 400 watt Marshall stack, please don't mic it up! You may very well need to turn it down to hear the drummer.
If you are playing Shea stadium with a Vox AC30, it will have to be mic'd up.
The more stuff you intend to run through the PA, the more power you need. If you play very loud Death Metal, you will need 2 to 3 times the power that James Taylor would need in the same hall. If the gig gets over medium-sized small, it will become necessary to put mics on the drummer, who will need a minimum of 4 channels, and possibly 8 or even more for hard rock/metal.

The only thing that is pretty much guaranteed to go through the PA is vocals. Almost all PA's of any type will have a built in reverb unit. Reverb is almost always used on vocals, and almost all PA's will have some EQ, for tweaking sound and dialing down feedback frequencies. As far as power, most smalltime bands get by with 600-1200 watts, depending on how much stuff goes into the board (PA), the type of music, and the size of the halls they play. Although I have played in a number of bands, now I am a solo folkie, and I get by fine with 250 watts. BTW, for what I do, switching back and forth between acoustic and electric, I find an amp modeler plugged into my little PA does exactly what I need it to do. A big-club Death Metal band will feel somehow deprived with less than 5000 watts and the required 15-20 speaker enclosures. Each to their own. BTW, the system recommended above is a perfectly good place to start. Hope this helps.- Richie
 
It's spelled "monitors" and here's one of Carvin's. They are used to allow the band to hear themselves. The monitors get a different mix than the PA, so they need another amp. This system has a mixer with two amps, one for the PA and one for the monitors.

When picking speakers to go with your PA amplifier, the wattage does not have to be the exact same number. If your amp is, say, 200W, speakers rated 150W and up would probably be fine. The speaker rating is for continous power and you probably won't be pushing your equipment that hard. Impedance, measured in Ohms, is a bit more critical. You cannot use speakers that have lower impedance than your amp is rated for. You can use speakers that have higher impedance. Hooking more speakers requires calculating their impedance as a group.
 
It is also important NOT to run a low power amp with high power rated speakers. What will happen is when you push the amp to its max (which you will eventually) the signal will start distorting, this distortion will burn out voice coils in a very short amount of time. I have had long talks with a friend who happens to be one of the top club system installers in the US and he always has more amp than speaker but he keeps the amps running at no more than 75% which still leaves plenty of headroom.

The point is, don't get a too low rated amp and if you go higher don't push it
 
APL said "The monitors get a different mix than the PA, so they need another amp. This has a mixer with two amps, one for the PA and one for the monitors."

when you say "amps" that means a powered mixer?

I can't really see any difference in the system that APL suggested before, and the new one he suggested. The mixer says "two amp" so ONE of those amps will go to the speakers, and one of them will go to the monitors?

also, i'm thinking it would probably be cheaper to just get little headpieces or headphones that richie talked about. what is the difference? is there an advantage to one or the other?

OH, sorry, just had a breakthrough while rereading your posts. when your talking about matching the amp to the speakers, your talking about the mixer amp right? so your guitar amp's wattage has nothing to do with it?
 
IronsideMessiah said:
apl said:
The monitors get a different mix than the PA, so they need another amp. This has a mixer with two amps, one for the PA and one for the monitors.

when you say "amps" that means a powered mixer?

also, i'm thinking it would probably be cheaper to just get little headpieces or headphones that richie talked about. what is the difference? is there an advantage to one or the other?

A powered mixer is a mixer and one or more power amps in one box.

Most mixers will have more than one "send." See here.

Look at the Channel 1 strip in the left side of the mixer (a strip is the set of controls from one channel.) Here's a closeup. The first three (top to bottom) are EQ. The fourth one is EFF and controls how much is sent to the effects (like reverb) system. The fifth one is MON, and that controls how much of Ch 1 is "sent" to the monitor jack or bus. The sixth knob is level, and controls how much is sent to the main bus. The main bus goes to a power amp and the PA speakers. The MON bus goes to another power amp and the monitor speakers. Bigger mixers allow several monitor mixes. Some powered mixers have two amps, one for the FOH (front of house) PA speakers and another for the monitors.

Getting an in-ear monitoring system for a whole band is kinda pricey, especially if everyone wants their own mix. Usually a small band playing small venues only needs enough monitor to hear the vocalists.
 
Oh, i see. ok. so, since there's only one "monitor" jack and one "speaker" jack, does that mean you can only hook up one of each, or is there a way of hooking up multiple speakers, maybe in a string to eachother?
 
IronsideMessiah said:
Oh, i see. ok. so, since there's only one "monitor" jack and one "speaker" jack, does that mean you can only hook up one of each, or is there a way of hooking up multiple speakers, maybe in a string to eachother?

On the one pictured, the MON is a line level signal that goes to a power amp, then to the monitor cabinets. There are other powered mixers with more than one amp that can power both the PA and the monitors.

If you hook up mulitiple speakers, you have to be careful of the impedance. Since the connection is in parallel, the formula is:

Z(total)=1/(1/Z1+1/Z2+1/Z3...)

So if you hook up two 8 ohm speakers you have a 4 ohm load on your amp. Four 8 ohm speakers give you a 2 ohm load. You cannot put a lower impedance load on your amp than it is rated.
 
I love gearslutz. It's like I moved up a level of expertise. I can still come here and mess around and have fun conversations with folks but if I need to record something or buy something or engineer something I can go there. It's like have the best of both worlds.

I am so happy for me.
 
apl said:
On the one pictured, the MON is a line level signal that goes to a power amp, then to the monitor cabinets. There are other powered mixers with more than one amp that can power both the PA and the monitors.

so you can't just run a wire from the mixers to the monitors? what is this "power amp" you speak of? I seem to recall Richie saying that it was built into the speakers in some cases, and a separate unit in others. Can we talk about them, how you hook them up, how much they cost, whether the monitors your suggesting to me have them or not, etc?
 
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There are several stages between a source and a speaker. A source, like a microphone or guitar, needs to be amplified to line level, which is about 2 volts. That's what the preamp section of a mixer does.

These line level signals are then EQed, FXed, mixed, sent to the various buses (FOH and monitors or tape deck). That's what the rest of the mixer does.

Line level signals do not have enough power to drive a speaker, so the line level signals go to a power amp. The power amp boosts the signal to drive speakers.

So there are three basic components in a PA system: mixer, power amp(s), speakers.

Richie is correct. There are speakers that are powered, and have the power amps built into them. You only need to feed them the line level signal and plug them into the wall and they'll blast your tunes. There are mixers that are powered, having one or more power amps built in. You hook up your mics and speakers and you're off and running. Or you can get all three seperately.
 
Warning, large post!! :D

The powered or active speakers will probably be best. You know they will be good and won't blow(or be very unlikely to), because they are built for each other. I have a 2x600w at 4ohm and 2x300w at 8ohm powered mixer and used to connect to this, 2 600w 8ohm speakers. The sound was pretty bad and the volume pretty low. I only put on a couple of gigs with this setup, one of which a band was playing with their manager watching. He was unhappy with the sound (mainly the volume) so kept telling me to put it up. I was very stressed anyway, so ended up doing it. Halfway through the bands setlist the speakers, or amp(not been able to test properly, but i'm sure it's the speakers) blew. Now I have a pair of 400w active speakers, still using the mixer, but the un-amped outputs. The volume is about double the volume from before with the levels not constantly flying into the red like before. The sound quality is also immensely better. I'm thinking of getting a pair of passive(un-amped) subs (bass speakers), so to get use of the 2x600w amp built into the mixer. The speakers i have now are dB Technologies Basic 400 Active Speakers.

What you need in your setup is, a mixer with as many mic (XLR) inputs as you have instruments. Drums: you will need at least 4 mic inputs, 2 of which need phantom power, so make sure the mixer has phantom power. Phantom is used to power the condenser microphones, you don't need to know all the technicalities involved, just that you need phantom power. Guitar: you will probably want to mic the amp. Either that, or if the guitarist has an FX pedal, take the output from that to a DI box, and from the DI to the desk. A DI box is used to convert the signal from unbalanced to balanced(balanced is better), and to change the impedance to that which will suit the mixer inputs. Bass guitar: you will either want to mic the amp with a bass mic or DI from the effects pedal or straight from the output of the bass. Vocals: you will want a dynamic mic such as the shure SM58. If you have drum 1 guitar, 1 bass and 1-2 vocals, then you will need at least 8 mic(XLR)inputs. I'd recommend getting more though, for flexability. I'd recommend getting at least 12 XLR inputs. A mixer like this will usually come with 2 stereo jack channels to make it a 16 channel mixer. If i was in your situation I'd probably get this mixer. It has 16 XLR input, which may be a bit much. But it will allow for great flexability. It also has 4 stereo jack channels, but you don't need to be bothered with these. It comes with 2 Multi-FX Processors, and 8-band graphic EQ(used mostly for removing any problematic frequencies producing feedback etc). It also has hi, sweepable mid, and low EQ for every channel, which allows you to tweak the sound to what you want. A multicore or stage box would be good with at 16 sends and 4 returns. This allows you to stand right up the back of a hall/venue, so you are in the best place to hear and make choices about the sound(ie levels, eq etc). It also keeps you out the way of the crowd. I have a 30 metre one, but I've seen them up to 45. Another advantage is that you only have one cable going from the stage to the mixer, instead of having loads of leads lying around for people to trip up on. This cable splits into many little cables at the mixer end, and has a box with inputs and outputs at the stage end. They look like this. I don't recommend getting a powered mixer if you are going to stand at the back of the venue, as it means you have very long cables with a lot of power travelling down them, which leads to a decrease in quality and a death trap, lol. To my knowledge, it is not a good idea to send a powered signal down a multicore, so that ain't a solution to this problem. I'd suggest getting powered/active speakers, but separate amp and speakers is still an option. With this setup you will be able to send the output signal down the multicore to the stage.

I could go on, but i feel that i'm just rambling and starting to not make any sense. If you have got to here and don't have a clue what I'm talking about, then I'd suggest reading again slower, and asking questions on the bits you don't understand. Lol i think this is the biggest post I've ever written :D. If you read a few times, ask questions and still don't understand, then I'm sorry but there is nothing we can do, and you need to start working on trying to understand us. You can't expect to just jump into this knowing nothing and be able to get amazing results, if any. You need to work hard and understand what we are saying. Hope everything works out well for you.
 
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