help

[courage71181]

how exactly, do you come accrossed a position where you write songs for money, if indeed you don't knowq anybody or have any connections?

 

[kindofblue]

I've heard many people getting good results from sites like http://www.taxi.com

another way I was told was to approach publishing companies..
record your song demos and hand them out to as many noteworthy people as you can.

I've even had results from local businesses i've written for. If you can get them a copy of your material to consider you, thats one step closer to getting a foot in the door.

 

[mikeh]

It is very, very hard.

With no connections, about the only option is a publisher. However, you still need to make sure the publisher is accepting outside material.

The "normal" route to a publisher is to contact the publisher first by mail, then with a follow-up call. This is only an introduction. If you establish some rapport it is possible the publisher will agree to listen to your material.

Normally no more than 2 or 3 of your absolute best songs. Normally, the publisher wants to hear your "style" - don't send one country, one hard rock & one rap - because the publisher doesn't want to struggle with where you fit (much like a recording artist has to intitially fit in a given musical genre).

There are tons of books, magazine articles & on line advice - some is good and some is crap. Like anything you need to do research and figure out what would work best for you.

I always assume if someone asked such a basic question, it suggests they haven't even tried to do research - which means they are not even close to being ready to compete at even a semi-pro level..

 

[NationalSandwic]

I always assume if someone asked such a basic question, it suggests they haven't even tried to do research - which means they are not even close to being ready to compete at even a semi-pro level..

you've got a good point there mike. although, maybe posting a question on a forum does qualify as research?

another thing: it's been suggested to me that you find someone to represent you to publishers, etc., because generally publishers aren't interested in dealing with the 'artists' anymore. too much potential for psychological bollocks. they'd rather deal with a business person. anyone heard similarly?

 

[mikeh]

National,

You are right, posting the question here is "research" and perhaps my comment was too harsh. I just feel there are so many sources of information that are so readily available (many of which are better than waht most of us can offer).

Regarding contact with publishers - my experiance is that some publishers still accept material direct (although rarely unsolicited). Publishers need material to stay in business and would be fools to turn their backs on any potential source. (I'm fortunate that I've already had an established relationship with a publishing house)

That being said, I'm sure there are publishers (likely the more successful ones) who only deal with representatives (managers, attorneys, etc). however, a stand alone writer would have a hard time finding management (unless the writer already had some success). Certainly a writer can hire an entertainment attorney to shop the material - but the writer better be real sure of the material before that pay someone $300 an hour to make phone calls.

 

[Jagular]

To expand on Mikeh's good advice.

It is EXTREMELY hard to get paid to be a writer if you don't live in a major music center. That's why I moved to Nashville. It takes YEARS of networking, co-writing, meeting publishers, talking about their kids, golfing...LOL...it's a relationship business. No one (almost) send in a cd of their masterpieces and gets offered a paid staff writing position. Doesn't happen.

Before any of that happens, you damn well be writing at a level BETTER than their staff writers. Otherwise there is no reason for them to be listening to your stuff.

Even after all of that, you won't make enough draw from your publisher to live a comfy life style. If you want to eat scour the dumpsters behind restuarants & have a banquet of Ramen Noodles once a week as a treat you might be able to survive...

It's not a get rich quick business. It's a long drawn out process with years of self sacrifice and working your butt off for nothing. If you like the prospect of that...ready, set, GO!!!

I don't think I could afford a staff writing postion if I was even offered one at this point. I have a wife, daughter, house, 2 cars...which I cannot (ok...I suppose I could if I was a total ass loser...so I'll say WILL NOT) sacrifice for my dream. What I have done is moved to where I can be close to the action, taken a job that supports my family well yet leaves an ever so slight bit of time for me to pursue my dream. Will it be enough...likely not, but time will tell.

Sounds magical don't it

No I'm not bitter. Just letting you know how it really works.



Good luck

 

[Jagular]

National,

That being said, I'm sure there are publishers (likely the more successful ones) who only deal with representatives (managers, attorneys, etc). however, a stand alone writer would have a hard time finding management (unless the writer already had some success). Certainly a writer can hire an entertainment attorney to shop the material - but the writer better be real sure of the material before that pay someone $300 an hour to make phone calls.

One more expansion on Mikeh's good post. Most established publishers will not listen to your stuff unless you know them, or get someone who they know to recommend you. There are avenues for that. But it still comes to needing to be present to win & years of relationship building.

You can hire someone calle a "plugger". However, most of the good ones only work for publishing companies and established writers. There are a lot of "pluggers" out there that will be happy to relieve you of some of your hard earned cash and give you a bogus pitch report once a month. It's a common scam. There are also a few good pluggers that will, for a retainer represent your songs if they think they are any good. But for that to happen you still need to be writing at a level AS GOOD OR BETTER than the established writers. So...still not easy.

 

[JaQsonA1]

one route that has proven successful for me is getting hooked up with producers. i m not sure if you produce your own music but i don't so i have to shop for producers and in the process if they like my stuff they let artist hear it and if they like it they contact me. it has worked out pretty good for me.

 

[JUSTIN MATHIAS]

I don't know wher you live, but the way I got started in Nashville was as close as my local newpaper. Look in the live music section of your paper and see if there are any clubs doing writers nights, jam sessions, open mics, etc. Then go there and sign up. Do some of your stuff. If it is good you will start to make some of the connections that you are looking for. Other writers will recognize your talents and you can get to know them and maybe start to do some co-writing with someone who has more experiance than you. The music business is a people business and the contacts you make lead to other contacts and your talent has to make up the rest.

 

[Emusic]

Contact a publishing company. If you write great, great songs they really will be interested. In Europe it's normal that the publishing company gets 1/3 of the songwriter royalties. For that they will spread the songs in their worldwide network, doublecheck the payback from royalties amongst other things.
There are some good books out there about the publishing contract and publishing songs through publishing companies.
Hope you don't live in the US. Seems like royalties and rules around it are much less regulated over there.

 

[Jagular]

another thing: it's been suggested to me that you find someone to represent you to publishers, etc., because generally publishers aren't interested in dealing with the 'artists' anymore. too much potential for psychological bollocks. they'd rather deal with a business person. anyone heard similarly?

It occurred to me that this part of the question never got answered. I would say that, at least here in Nashville, that is not the case. Publishers LOVE a good writer with artist potential. Know why? Because if that person becomes a recording artist and that artist is also a staff writer for the publisher, there is a HUGE chance that at least some of that artist/writer's songs will get cut on the album. Means a better chance of $$$ for the publisher. They are all for that!!

 

[NationalSandwic]

jagular, i'm not sure what a staff writer is. certainly, in south africa, i've not heard of anyone who makes a living just writing songs. I really don't understand how that sort of job works, or what it is even. could you elaborate?

i was advised to get someone (even if it's just a friend) to represent me. i think it's a strange idea. but i have a foot in the door with a major publisher over here, and wouldn't want to screw it up. but if it turns out that they're happy to deal with me directly, then i don't have a problem with that at all.

 

[Jagular]

jagular, i'm not sure what a staff writer is. certainly, in south africa, i've not heard of anyone who makes a living just writing songs. I really don't understand how that sort of job works, or what it is even. could you elaborate?

i was advised to get someone (even if it's just a friend) to represent me. i think it's a strange idea. but i have a foot in the door with a major publisher over here, and wouldn't want to screw it up. but if it turns out that they're happy to deal with me directly, then i don't have a problem with that at all.

A staff writer is a writer who writes, under contract, exclusively for a publisher. It is considered a primo position in the songwriting world. You actually get paid (sort of...it's a draw against future royalties and usually not enough to live on unless you have a billion cuts and multiple hits) to write songs. I actually consider it just below the ultimate postition in the songwriting world. I think the ultimate is to be so damn successful you don't NEED a staff writing position and you can act as your own publisher in many cases. That level is reserved for the few elite.

There are a lot of people here in Nashville making a living writing songs, not as many as are trying. Only a fraction EVER make it to that level. The level of writing here is phenomenal. IMO, the best concentration of writing talent in the world. The bar is set so high that it is nearly impossible to make it to that level. Yet, by some estimates, there are 20-40 thousand of us idiot dreamers beating our heads against the same doors. It takes years of working your butt off, building relationships, honing your craft to a razor sharp edge and then add to that, luck to get there. There are some exceptions to that rule, but they are few and far between. That's how it works here in Nashville.

I don't know how it works over there. Over here, the best route is to develop relationships with publishers and hope one likes what you are doing enough to kind of mentor you. If you have a foot in the door, you are probably doing something right and had to put in some time to get that far. If you were here, I would say just go meet with him and take your best three songs. No middleman. But I don't know what the customs are over there. In Nashville, it is a people & relationship game (on top of just being a damn good writer). Not sure how it works over there.

Hope that answered your question.

 

[Aaron Cheney]

... by some estimates, there are 20-40 thousand of us idiot dreamers beating our heads against the same doors.

That's it?! I spent years trying to become a session guitarist, and there are literally millions of great guitarists out there. By switching my focus to songwriting, I've upped my odds tremendously!

I'm pumped!

Now...I just need to find a living-wage job in Nashville, sell my home and pull up stakes here in Seattle, and move my family of four. Fortune and fame, here I come!

A

 

[Emusic]

@ Aaron
Checked out those sites you have there.
Allthough country is not my table that is some great sounds dude.
And the hold.fusion demo was hilarious and great
Keep it up

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Thanks for the props Emusic! You may be the only person EVER that has actually listened to the hold.fusion demo! That's a little side-biz I've been toying with, but I just haven't had time yet to give it the attention it needs to really get going.

If you have told me a few years ago that I'd be making country music, I'd have laughed. Once I decided to focus almost exclusively on songwriting, it was kind of a natural switch for two simple reasons: country offers you about the only chance of making $ as a songwritier, and country still give me the chance to wail on the geeetar now and then.

anyway...thanks.

A

 

[Jagular]

That's it?! I spent years trying to become a session guitarist, and there are literally millions of great guitarists out there. By switching my focus to songwriting, I've upped my odds tremendously!

I'm pumped!

Now...I just need to find a living-wage job in Nashville, sell my home and pull up stakes here in Seattle, and move my family of four. Fortune and fame, here I come!

A

Hey!!! If you do, maybe we can start a band!!!

 

[Aaron Cheney]

Don't tempt me......


A