Help with the L2 Ultramaximizer

[Change of POETS]

Ok...

I've been mastering for aboout 4 years now. I've gotten considerably better over those 4 years, enough so a lot of people are now paying me to master their projects. ( a lot to me, is 12 clients this year. That's like a weekend for John, I assume)

As an engineer, I despise the loudness wars. I absolutely despise the flat sound of most commercial releases. Therefore, I master projects how I like them to sound, with some healthy dynamics.

Generally speaking, this leaves me 4 or 5 db RMS below what a commercial release is. Now, most commercial releases I find to be in the -3 db RMS area. Peaks at 0, but the average is around -3 db. Most of my mastering is around -7 or -8 db RMS. My peaks are still hitting 0 (or -.01 if you want to be technical) but my average is much lower. I still find that -7db RMS is pretty freaking loud, and I'm happy with that for my releases. (Edit: As posted below, I'm speaking in dbfs in my DAW, not dbvu)

I find that my mastering genrally sounds more clear, and more "alive" than a typical commercial release. I realize this is due to the dynamics of the sound that haven't been squashed out of my masters.

Now, I recently mixed and mastered a vinyl release for a record label. I was mixing the remix for the vinyl. After the project was done, and sent off... and for my own benefit, I tried to match the master of the original off the CD release, with my version of the remix.

In my mastering process, I applied some EQ, slight reverb, and compression. The compression ratio I applied was 3:1 with a 243ms release. Threshold was -12 db.

After that, I slap on the L2 for limiting... Set my peak output at -.01 and run the meter down until I get the volume I need.... right? Wrong...

I couldn't get near the commercial release in volume with the L2. I was able to pull the meter down to -6.2 db before I achieved distortion, with a release of 10ms... Yet I still ended up a good 5 db short of the commercial release in volume.

Any help on using the L2? Should a run a chain of two or three L2's in succession with a more modest approach on them? Will this help me massage the track to a commercial volume?

Or, should I try compressing more before going into the L2?

Honestly, I don't know why I want to do this, other than the fact that I'm curious about it.... I more frustrated that I can't achieve it than anything right now. Most clients don't notice the difference, but I know that I'm going to get some clients at some point who say "Well, so and so's CD sounds a lot louder, we want it like that" and I'll either give them what they want or end up in prison for strangling someone with an XLR cable....

Any help here is appreciated.

 

[RAMI]

Whoah! I'm not sure if I undertood correctly, so forgive me if I'm off with my interpretation of what you said. But if you're saying most commercial releases average at -3, I think you're wrong. That's like a big squashed square. While alot of today's music is way over-squashed, I don't think I've EVER heard anything average at -3. I think once you starting talk about -10, -9, that's about as compressed as even the most compressed releases are. I usually like to keep mine averaging around -12, and even that might be considered too much for some people. I bet someone like Glen or Massive will tell you that (depending on the style of music), they won't go much louder that -14. Not trying to speak for them, but that's the impression I've got from reading some of their posts on mastering. I don't think anything comes in at -3, but I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong.

 

[tarnationsauce2]

Are you saying about -3dB RMS Maximum for most commercial audio?

I can't imagine it'd be -3dB RMS Average. That would be horrible audio with that kind of Average RMS. Hell, -9dB RMS Average is what I think of as abusive and excessive overkill.

Usually when someone talks about the RMS dB of a song they are refering to the Average.

So, maybe you're comparing maximum to average. In Adobe Audtion it shows Average, Min, Max, and Total RMS powers.

As an experiment I would reccomend loading a commercial song up on your DAW and find the RMS values. Then adjust your audio to see if you get it similar. If your audio still sounds quieter even though it has the same RMS Average, it's probably the frequencies (Fletcher-munsen curve) and wide stereo seperation that are making your ears think the commercial audio is louder when technically it is not. Alas, our ears and brains are not perfect audio measuring devices.

[edit] Rami beat me... dang I'm slow.

 

[Change of POETS]

Haha... I forgot to put the "qualifier" in there...

I'm talking dbfs, not dbvu.

 

[Farview]

You can't master to vinyl without a lathe. If you are compressing and limiting the crap out of it, you are screwing the actual mastering engineer cutting the vinyl. He is the one that needs to be doing all that because he can take into account the limitations of vinyl. If you compressed and limited the mix to commercial CD levels, you have already jacked up his gain staging something awful and probably introduced enough phase to make the needle jump right out of the groove.

And, like everyone else has brought up, I don't know what RMS meter you are using, but I have never seen anything sit at -3. The loudest CD I've seen is about -8.

 

[Change of POETS]

You can't master to vinyl without a lathe. If you are compressing and limiting the crap out of it, you are screwing the actual mastering engineer cutting the vinyl. He is the one that needs to be doing all that because he can take into account the limitations of vinyl. If you compressed and limited the mix to commercial CD levels, you have already jacked up his gain staging something awful and probably introduced enough phase to make the needle jump right out of the groove.

And, like everyone else has brought up, I don't know what RMS meter you are using, but I have never seen anything sit at -3. The loudest CD I've seen is about -8.

By saying I was mastering the vinyl, I simply added some compression and EQ to the final mix. No limiting whatsoever.

As I stated before, I wanted to see if I could match the CD master with my version, so I decided to limit my mix for sheer kicks.

The version I sent to the Vinyl house was peaking at -3dbfs and averaging -12RMS in my Adobe Audition meter. This is the third project I've sent them in as many months, and not once have they complained about headroom, or having any problems with the lathe... So I hope I'm not causing them any problems.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

The version I sent to the Vinyl house was peaking at -3dbfs and averaging -12RMS in my Adobe Audition meter.

Ok, that's more like it. I think you inadvertantly typoed in your original post, and that's what has us all up in a lather:

Now, most commercial releases I find to be in the -3 db RMS area. Peaks at 0, but the average is around -3 db.

We're all reading that as saying you're seeing stuff that's at 0dBFS(peak) and -3dBFS(RMS). That's just not right in several different ways .

G.

 

[Change of POETS]

Ok, that's more like it. I think you inadvertantly typoed in your original post, and that's what has us all up in a lather:

We're all reading that as saying you're seeing stuff that's at 0dBFS(peak) and -3dBFS(RMS). That's just not right in several different ways .

G.

Yes, Glen. I tried to edit the original post to clarify but... anyway.

I just assume people understand because I only work in the box... I don't use outboard gear. So, my apologies for being a retard in communication.