help with synth/sampler/midi

V

vitamin worm

New member
ok, once again i am a newbie looking for guidence in this electronic world ...

i was just reading the rhodes thread and i saw that you can actually use a synthesizer and sampler to recreate the sounds of other synths.

for example, i would like to use a keyboard and a sampler, and buy a CD or some sort of patch that could make it so it sounds like a moog, or a rhodes, or a mellatron or something similar.

can somebody explain to me how this could be done?

and what kind of equiptment i should look into buying if i was interested in doing this (and remember ... i am a poor college student on a budget).

i really really really really appreciate it,

thanks,

-vw
 
How it's done: You buy the sampler, buy a sound disc with patches that work on your sampler, load the patch and play!

Or did you want to know how it works, or?
 
thanks for the information ... maybe i should rephrase my question:

i want to make a keyboard synth make sounds using a sampler and patch CDs.

what would be a good sampler?
what would be a good keyboard?
where would i buy some of the patch CDs for the sampler?

thanks in advance!

-vw
 
Using a sampler to get a variety of sounds is a good strategy. There are some caveats to keep in mind.
If you sample a synth sound that has an evolving timbre or envelope, you are making a static copy of that evolving sound. So when you play that sample a few notes higher, the sound's envelope will be faster, whereas on the original synth the envelope takes the same amount of time no matter what key you play. For example, if you get a sample of a synthesizer sound like a "woooooooww" (filter opening and closing) and you play it on a higher note, it will sound like "woow". You can combat this by using a different sample every few notes, but it still won't be as good as the original synth. You can only tweak it so much. You can add more filtering to the sound using the sampler's filters (it should have them), but if you want less filtering you can't do much.
There are other little things that don't copy exactly. For example, portamento (glide) is not something you can sample. You'd have to use the sampler's portamento if it even has it, which some don't. And it might not sound like the original synth. (There's something about the Minimoog's glide that I like.) And if you want to sample a three-detuned-oscillator sound, it may be hard to loop because ideally you want to set a loop point where the beats converge so the loop is smooth.
Not to discourage you, though. The more sample-friendly sounds are pianos, drums, and strings. Having a sampler for this stuff great. It's mostly the unique, weird, evolving synth sounds that are less useful to sample.
Even though it's getting old now, I still like the Kurzweil K2000. It's very versatile. You might be able to get a used one cheap now. It 's actually a very deep synth in it's own right so you can do anything with it. (Then go over to www.mellotron.com and get the Mike Pinder Mellotron CD :) ) The K2000 can read popular sample formats including Akai, Ensoniq, Roland, and WAV and AIFF files. Actually, there are other good samplers out there, too. I just always liked a sampler that was also good synthesizer. (I also have a Korg DSS-1.) Also check out Akai samplers. They're very popular; perhaps a bit more expensive though, I'm not sure. You could probably get a good price on a used Akai. Others to look into are the Yamaha A4000/A5000 and Roland.
You can find some free samples on the Internet. For CDs, check ads in Keyboard magazine.
 
VW,

If you have a computer, I recommend FruityLoops. Yes its sampling software that doesnt take a lot of power to run and then you run around the internet and find good quality samples. Im a big moog and oberhiem fan and found some great real recorded samples.

John
 
Wormy
I dig the emu samplers. Do you have a midi controler? If not you could get that, a sampler and/or a sound module and you'd be set!
 
thanks for the help guys.

i have been looking into the Kurzweil K2000 ... which is what they use in the midi classes where i go to school. unfortunately these are a bit out of my price range (i was hoping for something around $500 that can read CDs from samples).

i would go with something like fruityloops ... but i am recording onto analog ... and i was hoping for something i could use in a live environment as well.

i am not quite clear on the K2000's capabilities. if i were to purchase a K2000 would i still have to get a sampler, or can the keyboard itself read the CDs?

thanks a lot!
 
Well, it depends on how close to a moog, rhodes, and mellotron sound you want to get. With the Juno 106 you cannot load samples of other instruments so you won't get so close. You just have to consider the Juno 106 as its own synth that has it's own sound and doesn't sound like other keyboards. So are you saying that you're going to get the 106 no matter what? And now you're thinking about what other keyboard to get to supplement that? Or is the 106 the only keyboard you're planning to get?
For $500, it's kind of hard to get a decent keyboard/sampler. I saw a couple of Roland S750's on ebay for about $400. That was a popular sampler although it's rather old now. And I think it might not have any filters you can use to change the sampled sound with. So I might pass on that one.
Another thing you might look into is an Emu Vintage Keys (or Vintage Keys Plus). I found some info on it here. It's not a sampler, but it is a synth module that has samples of rhodes, B3, moog, and other vintage instruments. There are also mellotron sounds (choir, strings, and flute…probably the three most popular mellotron sounds.) Since it is not a sampler, you won't be able to load any sound you want, but perhaps any sound you might want is already in there. I don't know what these are going for these days, since there aren't any on ebay at the moment. When they were new some years ago, I think they went for around $800. It may be hard to find one.

To answer your question about the K2000: in order to read sample CDs with the K2000 you would also need a SCSI CD player and a SCSI cable to connect the CD player to the K2000. Just that part of it would eat into your $500 (heck SCSI cables are expensive!) But just about any sampler you get is going to read CDs this way, so it's not just the K2000. Normally the less expensive (read older) samplers only have a floppy drive for loading samples and maybe a SCSI port. They might also have a way to transfer samples over the MIDI connection (called the MIDI Sample Dump Standard) but that is very slow.
 
>Well, it depends on how close to a moog, rhodes, and mellotron
>sound you want to get. With the Juno 106 you cannot load
>samples of other instruments so you won't get so close. You
>just have to consider the Juno 106 as its own synth that has it's >own sound and doesn't sound like other keyboards. So are you
>saying that you're going to get the 106 no matter what?

yeah, i think i am going to get a juno. i played on one a while back and loved it. so i will have to get anothe keyboard/synth at some point to supplement the juno 106.


>For $500, it's kind of hard to get a decent keyboard/sampler. I
>saw a couple of Roland S750's on ebay for about $400. That
>was a popular sampler although it's rather old now. And I think
>it might not have any filters you can use to change the sampled
>sound with. So I might pass on that one.

i think i probably will end up passing on that. i would like to get something good i could use for some time.


>Another thing you might look into is an Emu Vintage Keys (or >Vintage Keys Plus). I found some info on it here. It's not a
>sampler, but it is a synth module that has samples of rhodes,
>B3, moog, and other vintage instruments. There are also
>mellotron sounds (choir, strings, and flute…probably the three
>most popular mellotron sounds.) Since it is not a sampler, you
>won't be able to load any sound you want, but perhaps any
>sound you might want is already in there. I don't know what
>these are going for these days, since there aren't any on ebay
>at the moment. When they were new some years ago, I think >they went for around $800. It may be hard to find one.

that sounds damn cool! i will definetly keep my eye out for one of those.

>o answer your question about the K2000: in order to read
>ample CDs with the K2000 you would also need a SCSI CD
>layer and a SCSI cable to connect the CD player to the K2000.
>Just that part of it would eat into your $500 (heck SCSI cables
>are expensive!) But just about any sampler you get is going to
>read CDs this way, so it's not just the K2000. Normally the less
>expensive (read older) samplers only have a floppy drive for
>loading samples and maybe a SCSI port. They might also have a
>way to transfer samples over the MIDI connection (called the
>MIDI Sample Dump Standard) but that is very slow.

thanks a lot! i really dont know shit about midi. i may just end up renting a synth from a place here in town, i could get one for not very much and save up for a new one.

thanks a lot everyone for the replies. if anybody has good recomendations on decent synths within the $500 range please feel free to post them here. it is greatly appreciated.

-vw
 
ok, about the E-Mu Vintage Keys synth module ...

what do i need to make this thing work? my Juno 106 says it has midi capabilities ... will THIS play on the juno?

of not, what would be a decent setup i can get for this at a good price.

i think this vintage keys thang is exactly what i have been looking for! thanks a lot JimH for the recomendation!

-vw
 
Yeah, you can use the Juno 106 to control the Vintage Keys. You just need a MIDI cable connected from the MIDI "out" port of the 106 to the MIDI "in" port of the Vintage Keys. That's it.

If you don't have a way to listen to a Vintage Keys before you buy (assuming you can find one) you should probably get more opinions on it from other people who own one. I've never tried one so I can't vouch for how authentic the sounds are. But on the other hand, I can't think of any other single box that can give you that collection of sounds for that price. ( I just had to add my discaimer, that's all :) )
 
well i did a little check on the vintage keys synth and it appears that two have sold on ebay during the last two months (one going for $300 and one going for $400). it seemed to get good ratings and reviews at harmony central ... so that is probably going to be what i am going to go for after i get my roland.

but here is what i do not quite understand. why would the Roland Juno 106 play stuff from the Vintage Keys unit ... but not a sampler and CD?

appreciate the input Jim.

thanks

-vw
 
Juno 106 as a MIDI controller

The Juno 106 was one of the first keyboards with MIDI - as such it does not transmit or receive all the MIDI parameters that modern boards do. If memory serves it does not transmit pressure or aftertouch (and I'm sure some other parameters).

If you want to use the Juno to turn sound on and off (MIDI note on/MIDI note off) it will do those commands fine, however I would be willing to bet the Vintage Keys modules utilize pressure and aftertouch (probably to trigger Leslie affects on organs, etc) - which the Juno 106 can't achieve.

The reason I point this out is that most current keyboards/modules provide these real time performance controls (pressure, aftertouch, etc.) to give players more control and more "artistic freedom" - which the Juno 106 can't offer.

I have owned a Juno 106 for a long time (I upgraded from a Juno 60 - to gain MIDI) but don't use it much anymore, other than for specific "analog sweeps". The oscillators, filters and envelope generator are great to "create" analog sounds - and you can get decent pad sounds (strings, organ, etc.) - but as a MIDI controller (other than basic on/off control) it is limited.

That all being said, vitamin worm - I think you will be happy with the Juno 106 (in particular if you like real time control - lots of front panel knobs) and you may find it serves your purpose as a controller - just recognize the limitations.

Oh, by the way, since the Juno is about 20 years old be prepared to replace the battery at some point - not a huge deal, but if it crashes check the battery first!
 
Good point, mike. But pressure and aftertouch are the same thing. I think what you must have meant was velocity and aftertouch. Velocity information is the more important one, and the Juno doesn't send it out. I hadn't noticed that at first. So, yeah, it's an important thing to consider. I did a quick search and found this MIDI chart for the Juno 106. It always sends out a fixed velocity of 64, which is midway in the range. (Funny, it doesn't even send note off. It just uses note on with a velocity of zero.)
So, vw, what this means is that you can control the Vintage Keys from the 106, but when you play, all the VK's notes will play at the same volume no matter how hard or how soft you hit the keys. If you want better control of the VK, you'll need a keyboard that has velocity sensitivity and can transmit it over MIDI. This includes most keyboards made within the last 10 years or so. It's just that, as mike said, the 106 is rather old so it doesn't have it.

To answer your question….hmmm I'm not sure how to say it. A Juno 106 can certainly control a sampler, just as it can control the VK. But the 106 itself cannot load samples from a CD. That's what I was trying to say. Neither the VK nor the 106 are going to be able to load samples from a CD. Maybe you can ask again if I didn't understand the question. When I say "sampler", I mean any keyboard or rack module that has RAM that it can load samples into and play them.
 
well the vintage keys has everything i need. i read tons of reviews and listened to a lot of samples and came to that decision.

it is quite amazing that the day after you turned me on to the module one popped up on ebay for $350 (a pretty decent price), and i bought it with "buy it now."

although i still intend to get a juno (since i like the wierd sounds they can make), i will probably invest in a Yamaha DX-7 first (since they seem decent, about $250 and send velocity information).

then after that i will purchase my juno (probably a 60 since i dont really need the midi stuff since i would already have the Yamaha DX-7 which is pretty fucking capable).

i guess that pretty much concludes my series of questions, although i am sure that when the DX-7 and E-mu vintage keys arrive you will be hearing from me again.

thanks jim, and everyone else for all of the help.

-vw
 
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