Help with busy song...

[7string]

I'd put this in the mixing clinic but I've already tried that and not too many of the "pro's" hang out there so I thought I would ask for help here. Ok, here's the problem. I have a song that in the chorus there is a lot going on and I'm having trouble getting the separation AND the clarity needed. There are two guitars playing a hook, a lead vocal and three backups that overlap a bit with the end of the lead vocal. I can't hear the last couple of words of the lead vocal clearly when the backups come in. If I bring the lead vocal up, the backups are too low. I'm thinking it's NOT a volume thing so much as an EQ or compression thing? Or maybe something I'm missing or more likely just don't know how to do!!!! NOW... at the END of the song there is yet another vocal that comes in making it even more difficult. Please help me get the clarity and separation that the song needs!!!! I don't want to dump any of the parts at all. I'd like to keep them and make it work. I know it's a busy song but I also know it can be done. I've heard songs with this same sort of thing before. The Eagles do it alot and I'll shoot the first person who tells me to get Bill Mxtylplyx to mix it for me. Bruce? Tom? John? Anybody? Is this something that mastering will pull out? I tend to think that I shouldn't rely on mastering to fix my song and am a firm believer in getting it right BEFORE sending it to master.

Here's about a minute or so at the end of the song for those who wish to help.

Please be as specific as possible since I'm still new to compression and EQ but my skills are getting better than they were a year ago.

Thanks for taking the time!!!! Mucho Appreciatto! (That's French)

 

[Alexbt]

You're right. It is quite busy.

The vocals need more space between each other. It almost sounds like something's out of phase. 0_o
You can try panning the backup vocals out farther. The second guitar on the right sounds too low.

I should just throw it out there that there are some weird pitchy things going on....

 

[RAMI]

But the drums sound AWESOME!!!!!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

You're right, there is a very "Eagles" flavor to it. Kinda "Storyville" sounding too.

I think the issues contributing to your mix situation have to do with the competing tracks sharing too much of all three dimensions of the mix (pan, spectrum and depth.)

First, the guitars, lead vocals and backup vocals all sound very similar; they are all riding in simialr keys and share many of the same fundamental frequencies. I don't know if you can re-track or if you have the electronics to do this, but if the background vocals were pitched up an octave, there'd be less sonic conflict and more dramatic interest. Plus having the backups up an octave with help fill in the upper mids a bit which are maybe just a bit dark in the over spectral balance of the song.

If you are logistically or mechanically unable to bring the backup vocals up an octave, you could "cheat" a little by doing some "counterbalancing EQ" on the vocal tracks. By that I mean you could (just for example) boost the backup vocals 2 or 3 dB up in the high mids somewhere, say around 4.5k or so (just an expamle, choose the frequency to taste). At the same time throw a slight cut of the lead vocals, only about 1.5-2dB at the same frequency. Then do the same thing in revers at another bass frequency. For example (again the exact numbers are just examples, choose what works best) boost the lead vocals this time, by just a couple of dB at, say 400Hz, and cut the backups by a dB or two at the exact same frequency. This counterbalancing of EQ settings will help seperate the two sounds without any super-dramatic changes to the overall sound itself.

Second, there could stand to be maybe a bit more physical seperation between the leads and the backups. They seem to be centered in pretty much the same pan space. The backups sound a little wider by their nature, but they are still pretty much centered around the main vocals. Perhaps try kicking the lead vocal right just a few degrees and the backups left a similar amount, just to give them a little more seperation. This will also give you a bit more of a defined "call and response" feel to the chorus, a litle more textured.

Third, while you said you alreay tried bring the main vocals up in the mix, after the changes mentioned above there will probably be a bit more room for the levels of the vocals to stretch out. You might be able even to bring the backup vocals down 2dB or so and the leads up 2dB to give yourself 4dB more front-to-back seperation between the two. Expiriment around and see what works level-wise *after* making the above changes.

I'd aslo then be temped to try bringing that third counterpoint vocal to the very front. Maybe not boost the lead vocal, but actually make that lead secondary to the vocal rap at the end, which would be in front of it all (with little to no reverb on it, BTW.) But that's really a style option there, and one I'm not 100% positive would work intil I tried it. The main thing is get the main and the backup seperated in frequency and position first, and then you can work out the volumes from there.

YMMV.

G.

 

[7string]

Most excellent ideas, Mr. G! I like the idea of making the third vocal at the end the lead and 'push' the rest to the back. It's already dry if I remember correctly. Very good ideas to try and I will give them a shot later and let you know how it turns out. As usual, Mr. G to the rescue. From now on I'll just PM you.

Thanks!

Always willing to hear more so keep it coming folks!

 

[7string]

But the drums sound AWESOME!!!!!

Always willing to give credit where credit is due! That drumagog is AWESOME!



Seriously... GREAT job on those, Rami.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

From now on I'll just PM you.

Fair warning, my PM section has a toll box on it. Oops, maybe is should call that "fare" warning...

Yeah, definitely let us all know how you come out with that mix. I'll bet you wind up blending a few ideas from a few folks together with some original variences of you own to come up with the "right" solution. This could be a great "before and after" case study.

Good luck with what sounds like a great song already...

G.

 

[RAMI]

7, one of Glen's ideas seems so obvious now. Changing the voicing of the harmonies to take them away from the lead vocal's range. Without re-recording all 3 parts, you can start by trying to take that low one and singing it an octave higher. That might change the whole flavor of the 3-part harmony. Probably worth a try.

 

[7string]

7, one of Glen's ideas seems so obvious now. Changing the voicing of the harmonies to take them away from the lead vocal's range. Without re-recording all 3 parts, you can start by trying to take that low one and singing it an octave higher. That might change the whole flavor of the 3-part harmony. Probably worth a try.

I tried that but couldn't get anybody to kick me in the balls to get my voice up that high... ALL RIGHT STOP RIGHT THERE, VOLUNTEERS!!!!

Actually I tried to use pitch shift on it and just couldn't get it right in the short time that I had to work on it. I'll try to get back to it a bit later tonight. This is the busiest time of the year for me, which is a good thing because this time next week I hope to have some new monitor's... IF this brain of mine can ever decide on which one's to get.

But I think we're on to something and I think it has a lot to do with that lower vocal that is SOOOOO close in register to the lead vox. Something to work on, I guess...

 

[deafsound]

Turn every knob, virtual or otherwise, till it sounds the way you like it. Move on to next song.
I thought it sounded just fine the way it was. If it's busy, and it was supposed to be busy, then job done.

 

[7string]

Turn every knob, virtual or otherwise, till it sounds the way you like it. Move on to next song.
I thought it sounded just fine the way it was. If it's busy, and it was supposed to be busy, then job done.

Yes, it was written to be a busy song. HOWEVER, it's NOW a matter of moving things out of the way of each other so that each instrument has its own space, which is what I'm trying to accomplish. With all due respect, I don't think it's as simple as just turning every knob until it sounds the way I like it. But thanks for the input!

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Frankly, it's really not all that "busy" of a mix. You have the standard compliment of rock combo instruments, one lead vocal and backup vocals. Pretty standard lineup, actually, with nothing very unconventional going on in the arrangement. It's not like you're trying to mix a Poi Dog Pondering session . The only "extra" thing happening there is that counterpoint rap at the very end, but that's not where the conflict is coming in.

Stick with the current game plan, 7, you're on the right track (pun intended .) Get the vocals some space to breathe both spectrally and soundstage-wise, and the levels will be easier to sort out and you'll have a fine mix of a very nice song without too much sweat.

G.

 

[7string]

First, the guitars, lead vocals and backup vocals all sound very similar; they are all riding in simialr keys and share many of the same fundamental frequencies. I don't know if you can re-track or if you have the electronics to do this, but if the background vocals were pitched up an octave, there'd be less sonic conflict and more dramatic interest. Plus having the backups up an octave with help fill in the upper mids a bit which are maybe just a bit dark in the over spectral balance of the song.

This was my first step. I found out last night that I could hit the lower harmony notes an octave higher. HOWEVER, I was a bit too buzzed to trust it so I waited until this morning. THEN, I got busy and couldn't get to recut the damned thing!!!! But I think this is going to help immensely!

If you are logistically or mechanically unable to bring the backup vocals up an octave, you could "cheat" a little by doing some "counterbalancing EQ" on the vocal tracks. By that I mean you could (just for example) boost the backup vocals 2 or 3 dB up in the high mids somewhere, say around 4.5k or so (just an expamle, choose the frequency to taste). At the same time throw a slight cut of the lead vocals, only about 1.5-2dB at the same frequency. Then do the same thing in revers at another bass frequency. For example (again the exact numbers are just examples, choose what works best) boost the lead vocals this time, by just a couple of dB at, say 400Hz, and cut the backups by a dB or two at the exact same frequency. This counterbalancing of EQ settings will help seperate the two sounds without any super-dramatic changes to the overall sound itself.

This will be my next choice... however, I'm NOT looking forward to it.

Second, there could stand to be maybe a bit more physical seperation between the leads and the backups. They seem to be centered in pretty much the same pan space. The backups sound a little wider by their nature, but they are still pretty much centered around the main vocals. Perhaps try kicking the lead vocal right just a few degrees and the backups left a similar amount, just to give them a little more seperation. This will also give you a bit more of a defined "call and response" feel to the chorus, a litle more textured.

Well, right now I have the backups spread quite a bit. One 100% left, one 100% right and one about 5%. The lower two are the one's that seem to be getting in the way of things so I'm going to work on maybe moving those around a bit.

Third, while you said you alreay tried bring the main vocals up in the mix, after the changes mentioned above there will probably be a bit more room for the levels of the vocals to stretch out. You might be able even to bring the backup vocals down 2dB or so and the leads up 2dB to give yourself 4dB more front-to-back seperation between the two. Expiriment around and see what works level-wise *after* making the above changes.

I'll keep an eye on that, G. Thanks!

I'd aslo then be temped to try bringing that third counterpoint vocal to the very front. Maybe not boost the lead vocal, but actually make that lead secondary to the vocal rap at the end, which would be in front of it all (with little to no reverb on it, BTW.) But that's really a style option there, and one I'm not 100% positive would work intil I tried it. The main thing is get the main and the backup seperated in frequency and position first, and then you can work out the volumes from there.

An EXCELLENT suggestion! I actually tried it and I like it. I backed the lead vocal off at that point and brought the counterpoint vocal up a bit while leaving the backups alone. It really sounds much better. Great one, G. But then I've come to expect no less from you.

Tomorrow should be a bit more lazy day for me so I'll recut that vocal and put it all together and hopefully post an update tomorrow evening.

YMMV.

It did! I got 20 more notes to the measure!!!

 

[7string]

Frankly, it's really not all that "busy" of a mix. You have the standard compliment of rock combo instruments, one lead vocal and backup vocals...

And two hook guitars battling away...

The only "extra" thing happening there is that counterpoint rap at the very end, but that's not where the conflict is coming in.

Please stop calling it RAP... I can get you from here, ya know.

Stick with the current game plan, 7, you're on the right track (pun intended .) Get the vocals some space to breathe both spectrally and soundstage-wise, and the levels will be easier to sort out and you'll have a fine mix of a very nice song without too much sweat.

That's the plan! It seems to be working so far, but like I said before, I'll post an update tomorrow evening if I can get my voice working tomorrow. Great to have you along for the help, G. You deserve a lot more stars than you get. hahahaha

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

And two hook guitars battling away...

Ain't notin' that Keith Richards and Ron Wood haven't done a hundred times before I don't mean that to sound negative, it's really meant to be just the opposite. I'm just sayin' that it's not like you have a piano, organ, four-piece horn section, dual drummers and a tamborine in there too. Even that would not be that unconventional.

Please stop calling it RAP... I can get you from here, ya know.

No offense whatsoever intended by that term. We'll just call it "Vox3" for now.

I'll post an update tomorrow evening if I can get my voice working tomorrow.

Looking forward to gearing how it resolves out. I wouldn't mind grabbing the whole song when it's done and the dust has settled, if possible. The sample that's there sounds pretty nice; I'd like to hear the whole thing if you'r up for it, just for listening enjoyment.

OK, the post-game coverage of the longest game in World Series history is now officially over and my eyes are starting to glaze, so I'm going to bed. Good luck with the mixing, my friend.

GO GO SOX!

G.

 

[7string]

Ain't notin' that Keith Richards and Ron Wood haven't done a hundred times before .

Ok, NOW you're starting to piss me off!

No offense whatsoever intended by that term. We'll just call it "Vox3" for now.

Let's just call it the counterpoint vocal at the end... works for me... hahahaha

Looking forward to gearing how it resolves out. I wouldn't mind grabbing the whole song when it's done and the dust has settled, if possible. The sample that's there sounds pretty nice; I'd like to hear the whole thing if you'r up for it, just for listening enjoyment. .

Not a problem! But I'll have to post the SR-16 drum track instead of Rami's... it's SOOO much better.

Rami, you KNOW that I'm kidding!!!! That drum track fucking kicks ass! And I can't thank you enough for your help, your contributions and your drumming on everything you've done for me. Seriously, Duder! Man, if we lived within 17 hours of each other we'd be in the same band! Or at least I'd pay YOU just to carry your drumsticks.

OK, the post-game coverage of the longest game in World Series history is now officially over and my eyes are starting to glaze, so I'm going to bed. Good luck with the mixing, my friend.

BITE ME! I lived in Houston for awhile (and a close family friend pitched for them in the late 60's) and I was really hoping for them to kick some ass. But they really don't deserve to win the World Series the FIRST time they go to it. And I would have fired Garner (just like we did in Detroit!) for pitching to Pujols with a base open and 2 out. And I would have severed his nuts with a chainsaw for pitching to Konerko with two out and the bases loaded! I'd have walked him to get ONE run in, still lead 4-3 with 2 out and a force at any base. Geezus, don't these damned managers know ANYTHING about baseball?!?!?!?!

Sox in 4... no more than 5...

 

[deafsound]

Yes, it was written to be a busy song. HOWEVER, it's NOW a matter of moving things out of the way of each other so that each instrument has its own space, which is what I'm trying to accomplish. With all due respect, I don't think it's as simple as just turning every knob until it sounds the way I like it. But thanks for the input!

Oh, but it is.

 

[7string]

New Sample

Ok, I have been messing with the mix but this is the busiest week of the year for me. I had a few minutes and decided to try a few things suggested and here's a new mix. Ok, G. how's it sound?